My First 6 Months as a Doctor

  I'm sorry I can't get through this video without feeling emotional but it really... This is probably the hardest video I've filmed so far. Right, let me kick off my sandals and let's get started. Sandals are out of the picture, let's go. So this is just going to be a fairly relaxed and chatty video where I just reflect on my first six months working as a doctor. A bit of background for those of you who don't know me, I graduated from Cambridge last June and I started work as a doctor in the NHS in London in August. And just at the start of February, which is when I'm filming this, is when I officially have actually worked for six months in the NHS. So in this video, I'll firstly talk about my experiences so far and what I've done, what rotations I've had, what kind of things really stuck out to me as really memorable. Secondly, I'll talk about the overall positives I've drawn from this. Next, I'll talk about the things that have actually been quite stressful or potentially negative. And then I'll wrap up my reflections with a little bit of a conclusion before moving on to answering all your questions that you asked me over on Instagram. Well, I say all your questions, as many as I can manage. So let's get started. So I started at the very beginning of August working as a Foundation Year One doctor in the Trauma and Orthopaedics department. Trauma and Orthopaedics is basically a specialty that focuses on fixing broken bones and putting pieces of metal in them and so essentially if someone's involved in a car crash or has a really nasty fall while skiing and then they're brought in and then the consultants in the orthopaedics department will look at all the scans of their bones and decide on how to fix them with various different bits of metals and plates and frames and things like that. In terms of the F1s working there, there was me and three other F1s and I was so grateful to have a group of F1s all working together on our first job because we could sort of learn from each other and feel like we weren't alone in that process. The role that we had in the orthopaedics department was mostly to run the ward, so essentially the ward is all the beds which have these orthopaedic patients in them either waiting for an operation or after having an operation and they're just recovering until they're safe to go home. This would generally involve doing things like blood tests, taking lots of x-rays, either pre or post op, and then also making sure all the medications were right, taking care of the patients medically, because often orthopaedic surgeons are not super interested in the medical management of patients, so that would basically be our responsibility and also some of the SHOs. And we'd also be in charge of patient flow and making sure their discharge summaries were written and doing all the next of kin discussions as appropriate to our level. This, I'm not gonna lie, was a busy first job to start on. There were always loads of bloods, loads of x-rays, loads of things that needed to be vetted and scans and CTs, MRIs, various discharge summaries, lots of patient families wanting discussions and updates on their family. And during my rotation, the department was super duper busy with sometimes over 70 patients on the list who we would be ideally seeing every day on the ward round. But obviously with 70 patients, it's hard to really spend any significant amount of time on them. And the NHS is just under so much pressure at the moment. And it's so difficult to get beds or get patients discharged or get them the appropriate care that they need just because there's so much strain on the moment and it's so difficult to get beds or get patients discharged or get them the appropriate care that they need just because there's so much strain on the system and not enough resources there. And so working in a department like that the team was fantastic they were so supportive everyone was super helpful and I just I kind of enjoyed the orthopedic banter. Stereotypically orthopedic surgeons are like rugby lads supposedly but I quite enjoyed the chat and there's just the team vibes that we had going on in orthopaedics. That was quite fun. And I really did miss that on my next job. But even so, working in that job was pretty busy and pretty stressful, especially as a first job. Some of my shifts would start at 7.30 in the morning and then finish at 8.30 in the evening. And sometimes I'd have four of those shifts in a row. And that doesn't sound too bad, but when you're completely brand new to something, there's always going to be a certain level of increased stress that you have while trying to do it. And I definitely felt really stressed at work all the time for my first, I'd say my first month or so. I would always feel stressed at work. And often there wouldn't be time to eat lunch, or I'd feel like there wasn't time to eat lunch, or I'd even feel guilty to take a break to eat lunch when we're actually meant to have a break. And I remember sometimes after spending four days in a row working 13 hours a day, I would just feel like a complete shell of a human being and I feel like I hadn't had any time to myself because my commute is around an hour. So if I'm working for 13 hours then two hours of taking up commuting, that leaves me with nine hours to myself at home. I need eight hours of sleep. So that means there's one hour for me to eat and do all my like morning and evening routines and do all my self-care, do everything else in my life. And that felt really really stressful and felt like I didn't have a life sometimes. I know I wasn't the only one that felt that way and again that's why I'm so grateful that there were other F1s working in that job because we could commiserate about it being difficult and then that made it almost easier to bear because then I could think like oh you know what I'm feeling stressed by this, not because I'm really bad or crap at my job but because actually this is hard and this is tiring and it's stressful. I remember very clearly after I messed up printing some patient list and it printed in the wrong format I had to do it again and all sorts of print issues. But then I ended up being around five minutes late to bring the list to the trauma meeting in the morning where they essentially discuss all the patients that are waiting for operations and discuss whether or not they should be for theatre that day or the next day. And then while in the trauma meeting, I realised that I hadn't sent off a certain blood test called Group and Save for a patient the night before because I'd been so stressed with so many other jobs and unwell patients who are having upper GI bleeds or other various things like that. So I went to the doctor's restroom and I just sat down and honestly had a little bit of a cry because the levels of stress had just boiled up to the point where actually I felt overwhelmed. And I don't think there's any shame in having to take a break to deal with your emotions or let them come to the surface in that way and experience them fully because suppressing emotions over and over again is actually, I've realised, not a sustainable way to deal with them. Mistakes are going to happen at work and you're going to get things wrong but it's just about taking responsibility for that, being accountable for it and making sure that you've done everything in your power to correct it. So for me what I did is I immediately went at that point to send off those bloods as soon as I could when I realized... I don't feel ready I feel like, I just feel so emotional when I think about all the times I went to like cry in being a medical student and not having any responsibility really and being able to just be there and learn to suddenly being the one who all of the bloods and x-rays rest upon and if you don't do it then no one else is going to be doing this stuff and having to take that professional responsibility and step up to it is a level of burden and stress that I hadn't experienced before and I feel like I've had to go through a lot of personal growth in order to be able to handle that and even just thinking about the way that I felt back then and how stressed I was and how hard I found it makes me feel emotional and I'm sorry I can't get through this video without feeling emotional but it really... this is probably the hardest video I've filmed so far which isn't saying a lot because I haven't filmed very many hard videos. I just very clearly remember a good handful of times when I would have to take a break from my day and go find somewhere quiet, either go to a toilet or go to the doctor's mess and just sort of cry a little bit and just like I'd feel some tears well up in my eyes and it wouldn't be a big sob session, it would just be a few silent tears, just feeling the pressure and feeling that it needs that outlet and needs to be released somewhere. Another time this happened to me was actually during a night shift. So my second rotation, which I'm currently on, is in like acute medicine and general medicine. So we do night shifts and often we'll have like three or four night shifts in a row, starting from 8.30pm until 9.30am the next morning. During one of my night shifts, there was a patient who was on non-invasive ventilation, which is essentially when they put a mask over your face, which helps you to breathe and kind of creates pressure to help you get air into your lungs. And they'd been on this non-invasive ventilation for around a day or so, a day or two. During this time, they had actually become unresponsive, and after an extended discussion with my senior, who was a registrar overnight, they decided to take the decision to turn off the ventilation and as the medical F1 covering essentially the whole hospital for the night, I was asked to go over and supervise the ventilation being taken off. The patient's family had all gathered around to visit and myself and one of the nurses switched off the ventilation and took off the mask and popped on just some normal oxygen instead. Within minutes the patient's breathing stopped and her heart stopped beating and I certified the death with a family there. Certifying a death essentially involves listening for any breath sounds or heart sounds, feeling for a pulse, checking for any pupil responses to light and checking for any response to painful stimuli. I told the family what happened and then I left them be just for a moment to have some privacy with their loved one after they had passed away. This was one of those moments where I felt like, wow, actually really the work that I'm doing is really genuinely dealing with matters of life and death. And in that moment, I genuinely felt like a doctor, able to certify someone's death and communicate that with delicacy to a family who are already grieving the loss of their loved one. But at the same time, it also affected me personally. And after that, I sort of went away and I actually went for a walk outside just at night. This was at like 2 a.m. Just to get some fresh air and just feel the emotions that that had stirred up in me. And that's the thing with medicine, it places you in this unique position where you've been trained with all of the skills that you need to communicate, to perform clinical examinations, and form initial diagnoses for investigations, management, etc. But when you're actually in the ring and actually doing it rather than just learning it in a simulated setting or on past medicine, it feels so different because it's real and that's actually a moment that those family members will probably never forget, that will always be in their memory. And it's genuinely an honour to be able to use skills and knowledge that you've gained in order to be there at that time for people who really need it. After that initial transition period where everything was initially like so stressful, so new, I had no idea what I was doing, I felt like I was always doing things wrong, always having to ask people how to do things, when I finally started to gain that feeling of confidence that goes along with actual competence, that was actually an incredible feeling, to be able to just turn up to my job and feel like I could actually do it and deliver a good job, job well done. That was a really good feeling because being able to have discussions with family members or being able to bang out a set of bloods or being able to whack out a few discharge summaries and get patients sent home and give them their prescriptions, it feels good, it felt really good. So to anyone who's watching this who might be starting work as a doctor soon or wondering what it might be like, that initial transition is hard, it is really hard, and it's going to be hard. Don't feel like you're the only one who's struggling because literally everybody else is finding it really difficult as well. I certainly did and I know so many others who have found it so difficult. So know that it's hard, but also know that it's worth it and that you will upskill really rapidly and you'll get so much better so quickly. And within like a month or two, you'll be feeling so much more confident, so much more competent, and that will just continue to increase over the whole of F1. When I finally switched rotations to my current rotation, which is general internal medicine slash acute medicine, I realised how busy my first job on orthopaedics actually was because it is still busy but there's actually much more time per patient, the lists are smaller, instead of having 70 patients on the list maybe there'll be 15 and this is so much more manageable. I know that sounds obvious but it actually is so much more manageable and I found that the pace in medicine has been much more measured and there's more time spent thinking about electrolytes like sodium potassium and worrying about those sort of medical aspects which makes a lot of sense because in terms of the orthopedic side of things they're mostly concerned about actually making sure that the bones are fixed and they're strong and that they're healing and all of that sort of things whereas in medicine you're actually trying to balance all of these different physiological processes that are going on to try to optimize that patient's well-being while they're in hospital and hopefully get them well enough to go home. One of my favorite things on medicine has been being on take. So when patients initially come into the emergency department with some kind of issue, they will initially be triaged and seen by an emergency department doctor and they'll take a history and do an examination and decide which specialty the patient should be sent on to next. So they either decide, okay, should the patient be discharged home? Should they be referred to the medics or should they be referred to the surgeons, whether that's orthopaedics, general surgery, vascular surgery, or somewhere else. Then when you're on take, then the medical registrar will delegate different patients who've been referred from the emergency department to either the F1 or the SHOs. SHO stands for senior house officer to be clocked in and seen. I've actually found that this is the best place to learn because you actually get to go see a patient, take a full history, do a full examination and then come up with your initial management plan. Then you go and present this to the med reg who will maybe tweak bits of your management and give you some feedback on things like that. This is probably my favorite part of working in medicine, when you have this little team of people on take and you can go clock in patients. Otherwise, when you're just working on the ward, you make sure that all the bloods are taken, all the scans have been done, and you review every single patient daily and see them on the ward round. My absolute favorite things so far have genuinely been the team vibes and working with a team of incredible doctors. Some of the people I've worked with, I have so much admiration for their extensive knowledge of their specific area, whether that's in orthopedics or whether it's in general medicine, they really know their stuff and just seeing them at work and seeing them making those decisions, it's just amazing. It's really inspiring, genuinely incredible. The hardest parts of the job overall have probably been the lack of autonomy over when you actually have free time. And so having to put in annual leave requests and having a leave denied, not being able to make it to friends' birthdays. Or I know friends who had to miss Christmas or New Year's. That's actually a huge sacrifice. Another fun aspect of starting F1 that has actually been a bit of a surprise is all of the doctor's mess activities. So the doctor's mess is essentially the social side of the doctors that work at the hospital and they'll organise little pub trips or events or parties and getting to know more of the F1s and doctors that I work with has probably been one of my favourite parts of starting work because they're your colleagues but they're also your friends and they're going through the same experience as you. Okay, so that's probably enough of me just using the camera as my therapist. Let's answer some of your questions over on Instagram. Okay, a question from Anita. Was it worth it? Would you do this choice of going through med school again? So I guess there's two separate questions here. The first question is was it worth it? I think that's a hard question to answer at this stage because I feel like I've only just scratched the surface and only just gotten started. But would I go through this choice of doing med school again? 100% yes. Because medical school taught me so many skills and changed me completely fundamentally as a person. I met so many amazing people along the way and also the person I am today would be completely different if I hadn't gone to medical school. Sorry about the whirlwind of lighting. Okay, right. So, yeah, other reason why I thought I'd film this on holiday was because I wanted to film this at the six month mark when I'd actually hit six months as a doctor and I thought it was quite relevant actually because this is the first time I've really taken an extended holiday out of medicine, longer than like a couple of days. So this has been a good opportunity to actually reflect and assess how things have been going. Do you like it more as a doctor or a medical student? This is a great question because actually I'd say that from a learning and just experience and chilling kind of standpoint, being a medical student is way more chill. You can have much more flexibility. You just have the responsibility to study and pass your exams. But from a sense of actually being part of a team, I love that being a doctor, you actually feel like a valuable member of the team, actually contributing and bringing value to your patients and your colleagues. And that's something that I've really enjoyed about being a doctor you actually feel like a valuable member of the team actually contributing and bringing value to your patients and your colleagues and that's something that I've really enjoyed about being a doctor How does it feel to work a night shift? Not gonna lie, working my first set of nights was really a stressful idea in my head because I need my sleep and I'm very dependent on good rest to function and actually be able to make good decisions and I was thinking my god if I'm just staying up throughout the night How am I going to make good decisions and actually be able to make good decisions. And I was thinking, my God, if I'm just staying up throughout the night, how am I going to make good decisions and actually be able to make safe decisions? In the end, I would just sleep as far as much of the day as possible before my night shift. But even having slept beforehand at around 4 a.m., 5 a.m., my brain just starts to shut down. And honestly, it feels really exhausting and just really tiring. On some level though, working nights is a bit more fun because you're literally, there's just an F1, two SHOs and a med reg in the entire hospital covering all of the medicine patients overnight. And any of the medical emergencies or referrals that come in all come to your team. All of the ward issues, everything. So you tend to get referred slightly more interesting things because the more basic or less urgent things that can be dealt with during the daytime will be saved until then so you only get the really pressing things which is actually kind of when you really learn. So it's a bit of a mixed bag but overall a really good experience and a really good learning experience. What do you do to feel better after a bad day or you realize some mistakes in your management? This is such a good question, so so important because I've had this experience so many times when I felt like I've had a really stressful day or a bad day or maybe did things in a way that looking back I would actually want to do differently and it's all about accepting you know what that happened and acknowledging that it was difficult and acknowledging the things that you wanted to go differently and then also just moving on and thinking how you can rest and recharge from that point on and I think having a good support network, good friends and family that you can speak to and you feel comfortable talking to about the difficulties you've had in your day is really important. So often I'll complain to my family or like tell them about things I've been experiencing at work. Alternatively, another thing that's really important for me is bullet journaling and being able to journal about how I felt or what went on and having that safe space to have a reflective practice is a really good way to decompress. Finally I think self-care is so important and taking that time for yourself to actually unwind and de-stress is so healing. Also sorry I'm kind of filming this in the dark, there's no lighting at the moment so I'm just using the kind of natural twilight, post sunset glow in the sky to light this video. Have you ever been exhausted working as a doctor? Yes, absolutely. There's times when I've been working maybe like 60 plus hours a week, sometimes 70 hours in a week, and then I'll just be exhausted. And I know some people work more. I'm not saying that that's a crazy number of hours, but to me that is exhausting and I would just feel completely dead at the end of that. Is it easy? I feel like it's an overwhelming job. It is an overwhelming job. It can be overwhelming but there's a lot of support from colleagues and from friends and families which makes it doable. What does work-life balance look like for you? What are healthy work-life boundaries? This is so important and I think the main thing here is when you are at work, you're at work. When you're not at work, when you're finished, you switch off and you don't worry about the things that are going on. If I'm completely honest though, my work-life balance isn't great, and I think it could be improved a lot. Okay, so I think that's about all I have lighting for, because the light outside is fading very rapidly. There's a couple more questions, but I'll answer those in a future video. Make sure to follow me over on Instagram if you want to get involved with future Q&As or other polls I put out. That's pretty much my reflections on six months of working as a doctor. Overall, it's been really tough, but also really rewarding, and I've grown so much as a person and also as a clinician in this short time. This is one of the periods of the most rapid growth that I've ever experienced and looking back at it it's actually been a bit of a roller coaster. Thanks for bearing with me getting a bit emotional in the middle of that and also thanks for bearing with like the very variable lighting. It's been a bit crazy and a bit up and down as the sun's been setting as I've been filming this video. I've been trying to turn on various other lamps to keep it somewhat illuminated in here. This has been a bit of a chatty, relaxed video. I hope you enjoyed it. Let me know what you think of this style of video down below. If you enjoyed this video, I think you might like this video over here where I answer a couple more questions that you guys asked. Thank you so much for watching. Take care of yourself and remember that the journey is the destination. Bye. that you guys asked. Thank you so much for watching, take care of yourself and remember that the journey is the destination. Bye!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RLdRauWegI
My First 6 Months as a Doctor (what it's really like)

David Goggins_ How to Build Immense Inner Strength

David Goggins_ How to Build Immense Inner Strength- English

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome
to the Huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science
and science-based tools

for everyday life.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

I'm Andrew Huberman,
and I'm a professor

of neurobiology
and ophthalmology

at Stanford School of Medicine.

My guest today is David Goggins.

David Goggins is a
retired Navy SEAL who

served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He's also a highly accomplished
ultramarathon runner.

For those of you
that don't know,

ultramarathons are
distances longer

than 26 miles and, in
David's case, often longer

than 200 miles.

For his achievements
in athletics,

he has been inducted into
the International Sports

Hall of Fame.

He also held a Guinness World
Record for the most pull-ups

completed in 24 hours.

I should mention that not only
was David a decorated Navy

SEAL, but he also graduated
from Army Ranger School.

David is also a highly
successful writer,

having authored two books, the
first entitled "Can't Hurt Me"

and the second entitled "Never
Finished," both of which

are best sellers.

David's books cover
many topics, including

his autobiographical
description of what can only

be described as an
incredibly challenging child

and young adulthood.

His home was abusive.

His school environment
was abusive.

He essentially had no positive
resources directed his way and.

In his 20s, he found himself
to be obese, that is,

more than 300
pounds working a job

he despised for minimal pay.

And it was at that point that
David began an inner dialogue

that forced him to explore
the demons born out

of his childhood but also the
position that he found himself

in as a young man and
then began the journey

to navigate that dialogue and
transform himself into the Navy

SEAL, the ultramarathon
runner, the bestselling author,

and the extraordinarily
positive and influential man

that he is today.

As some of you may
know, David has

done various public lectures.

He's a familiar face
online because there are so

many clips of him on YouTube.

And he has done podcasts before.

However, I'm certain that
you'll find today's discussion

to be very different
than previous podcasts

that David has been featured on.

The reason is
that-- of course, we

get into his accomplishments.

We talk about the
mindset that allowed

him to achieve those things.

But, today, David really
lets us under the hood.

He lets us into the
form of inner dialogue

that he has to
embrace, indeed that he

has to grapple with on a daily
basis, sometimes multiple times

throughout the day
and night in order

to impose the sort
of self-discipline

that he is so well known for.

We also get into some of
the scientific mechanisms

underlying willpower.

And we talk about
David's current endeavors

that include, for instance,
his own exploration of science

and medicine for which he
has become an intense scholar

and practitioner.

I should mention that multiple
times throughout today's

discussion you will
hear curse words.

Now David and I both
acknowledge that cursing

isn't for everybody
and that cursing

itself is different than
cursing at somebody.

Nonetheless, we do realize
that many people, parents

perhaps especially, might
not want to hear cursing.

If you don't want
to hear cursing,

well, then this podcast episode
is probably not for you.

However, if you are
comfortable with cursing

or if you can tolerate
it, I assure you

today's discussion
is highly worthwhile.

Before we begin, I'd
like to emphasize

that this podcast is separate
from my teaching and research

roles at Stanford.

It is, however, part
of my desire and effort

to bring zero cost to
consumer information

about science and
science-related tools

to the general public.

In keeping with
that theme, I'd like

to thank the sponsors
of today's podcast.

Our first sponsor
is Maui Nui Venison.

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I've spoken before
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Today's episode is also
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AeroPress is similar to a
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but it is, in fact, a much
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I first learned about AeroPress
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And I've been using
one ever since.

AeroPress was developed
by Alan Adler, who

was an engineer at Stanford.

And I knew of Alan
because he had also

built the so-called Aerobie
Frisbee, which I believe

at one time, perhaps
still now, held

the Guinness Book
of World Records

for furthest thrown object.

And I used to see Alan,
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So he was sort of
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Now I love coffee.

I'm somebody that drinks coffee
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In fact, I take it with
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Today's episode is also
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Now a key component of
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is that in order to fall
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Eight Sleep currently
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Again, that's
eightsleep.com/huberman.

And now for my discussion
with David Goggins.

David Goggins, welcome.

DAVID GOGGINS: My man.

Good to see you again, man.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
Great to see you.

It was late 2016,
early 2017, I believe,

when you were in
my lab at Stanford.

DAVID GOGGINS: Yes sir.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: We did a
little work later that day

down in San Jose.

And, gosh, see you everywhere,
but it's not enough.

So great to have you here.

DAVID GOGGINS: Thanks for
having me on, brother.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.

You embody discipline
and doing hard things.

I think we should just
start right off with--

DAVID GOGGINS: Yeah.

Let's just go there.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
--the bold truth.

But right before
we went hot mics,

we were talking about learning.

Right now, you're spending some
time learning and doing things

that I think most people
probably don't typically

associate David Goggins with.

DAVID GOGGINS: Right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Why don't
you tell us about that?

DAVID GOGGINS: Well,
most people just

look at me as the guy that
runs and yells as he's running.

While I do that to
motivate people,

but people don't understand
that my day is broken up

into segments.

I work out.

I eat.

I sleep, but I spend
most of my time studying.

So like I'm in
the medical world.

I'm a paramedic in Canada.

But I spend a lot
of my time trying

to nuke every single thing
about it because I'm not

trying to just be a
paramedic, learn about veins,

and arteries, and how the heart
pumps, and stuff like that.

I'm trying to learn
to the point where

I can save someone's life.

And even though paramedics are
doing that all over the world,

I'm trying to be that
paramedic that can really

dissect exactly what's going on
and figure out what medication

goes where, just trying to
learn the algorithm of what's

going on, man.

So I spent a lot
of time with it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I
love the word algorithm

because when I teach
biology or try and learn

anything that's related
to biology and especially

the human body, I need
to know the nouns.

But it's the verbs that matter.

And that's really what
you're talking about.

Just saying that sits there,
that brain part there,

doesn't tell you how
it all works together.

So what does your process
for studying look like?

If we dropped a
camera in the room,

brought a microphone into
your inner dialogue--

gosh, wouldn't we all love that.

But if we dropped a microphone
into your inner dialogue,

are you waking up looking
at the books and going,

yeah, fresh day, let's learn or
is some of the same resistance

that you've talked about
coming up around physical work,

is that coming up
from time to time?

DAVID GOGGINS: You know
what, I was nervous at first.

I'm going to keep it real.

I'm going to keep it real.

So I'm not a real smart guy.

And what I mean by that is
I was born with ADD, ADHD.

Like my brain cannot
retain information.

I'm not some genetic freak
when it comes to running,

when it comes to
lifting weights.

I am absolutely the
bottom of the barrel.

And people will
never believe me.

And they can just whatever.

Believe what you
want to believe.

So when you ask me this question
about what does studying look

like for me, I have to go over
the same page over, and over,

and over, and over again, while
Jennifer can look at that page

while she's quizzing me,
she'll learn it right then

as she's-- she didn't
know anything about it.

She will quiz herself
or quiz me and learn it

as she's quizzing me.

It's the most frustrating
thing in the world

how my brain works.

So what I do is I literally
sit there with a pen and paper.

And I have my books.

And I go through and
have to write everything

down every single day.

I will study the
same page until it's

photographic memory from
writing the same thing down.

And then from there, I'll go
back through and relearn it

again.

So I'll learn the bulk of it.

But then I'll go through
and learn the small things

within that.

So if it's a medication, I'll
learn what the medication does.

First, I'll learn
how to even say

the medication because
these medications aren't

like albuterol.

No, it's very big words.

So I'll go through, learn
how to say the name.

Then I'll go through
learn what the dose is.

Then I'll go through-- and
this is like every single day.

So it's not like, oh, I got it.

Let's just go through--
no, nothing is I got it.

Every single thing--
so I can't wait

to get in this conversation
because everything

I do in life, it sucks.

Everything I do
in life, it sucks.

That's why when I was 300
pounds and 24 years old,

it wasn't like I had some
big epiphany of let's just

go be a Navy SEAL, and
let's lose some weight.

No, I knew my entire
life was going

to be a struggle, which
is why I just ignored it.

And I said, I'm not even trying
to jump off any of this shit

and learn how to read, how
to write, how to memorize,

how to become
something I am not.

But through that process,
something happened to me.

And I realized-- this is
why I feel sorry for no one.

In this podcast, they're
going to really not like me

because people
are going to think

that I am maybe lying or
maybe fibbing or exaggerating.

No, I am literally--

I was the lowest form on Earth,
no talent, no ability to learn.

And I literally know what
it is to be rock bottom

and to build that up.

So that question about
learning is the pain in my ass.

And I don't have to do it.

Just think about it.

I'm 49 years old, and
I'm a multi-millionaire.

I don't have to do anything.

So all I thought about
when I was growing up

is, man, I can't wait to
one day get to the point

where I no longer
have to do this stuff.

But what happened
as I got older,

it became a way of living.

So how I do every day
is how I do every day.

It's a discipline.

It's a regimen.

It was a choice I made.

And the choice I made was what
are you willing to sacrifice,

and what are you willing to
give up to find every bit of who

you are as a human being?

And I was willing to give
up everything to do that.

So studying is no joke.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love
that you're studying.

I recall a few years ago, I
heard some interview or podcast

with you.

And you just threw out like I
don't know what I'll do next.

Maybe I'll be a scientist.

And I went yeah.

Because I knew-- because
I know you a bit.

And I see your work
out there, but we

had met before,
that if you decided

that you were going to do it--

and learning medicine,
which is what you're doing,

learning human physiology
is so detailed.

DAVID GOGGINS: Very.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
And people out there

have to understand when
you look at a textbook

and you see the veins and the
capillaries different colors,

when the body is open,
they're not different colors.

DAVID GOGGINS:
Right, right, right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So
I mean, some things

have different color
contrasts, but it's not

like it's all labeled
when you pop it open.

DAVID GOGGINS: Exactly.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And so the
process of writing things down

by hand is important for you.

So you go back and
read those notes.

Do you think about
that stuff on your runs

too or are you
segmenting your day

like when you're done studying,
are you heading out for a run

and thinking about other things?

Or are you still rehearsing
the material in your head?

DAVID GOGGINS: So when I write
it down, I write it down,

and I'm able to--

I'm actually looking
down at this table

right now because
I'm back to writing.

So I'm actually there right
now as I'm speaking to you.

I write it down in a way
that I'm memorizing page 69.

So I'm writing it down.

So then writing it down and that
page sync together in my brain.

So I'm looking at the book
in my brain right now.

That's just how it works for me.

And I have to do it
over and over again.

So that page is
stuck in my mind.

So I'm literally
flipping through pages

as I'm taking these tests.

And I'm taking these national
tests to become a paramedic

or become an advanced
EMT or whatever.

I'm literally as I'm taking
that test I'm going through.

And I'm like-- now I'm
flipping pages in my head

where that page was.

And how I do that is
just from how I write it

and how it's on the page.

When I run, I can't
recall any of it.

I cannot bring any of
that because I'm running.

How my mind is wired now is that
everything I do is what I do.

Because the focus it takes for
me to-- right now, I'm running.

I'm not like a great runner.

I'm not like injury free.

So like my first 20 minutes
of the run I'm limping.

I'm literally
limping because I've

had several knee surgeries.

And my body was twisted.

And so now it's untwisting.

So people look at me, oh, looks,
like he's limping when he runs.

I am limping when I run.

My body is jacked
up so I'm focusing

on how to get the best
out of a broken body.

So everything I do
is a total focus

on what I'm doing at
that point in my life.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So it
seems like you've really

trained away or somehow
gotten away from the ADD

that you mentioned
because what you described

is like a deep trench.

It's like a V shaped trench.

I'm imagining like
there's a ball bearing,

and it's like, phewp, and it can
only go forward in that trench

or back.

And it goes forward.

It's not like sliding around
at the concave at the bottom,

zip-zip-zip, like a tension.

So it's like you
trained that up.

Is there a similar
feeling when you're

in the full focus of running
versus full focus of studying?

Does it kind of
feel like, oh yeah,

that's the same groove but
different thing or is it

just completely different world?

DAVID GOGGINS: It's a
completely different world.

Both of them for
me is suffering,

but it's suffering a
whole different way.

Like when I was going through
school, I never forget--

I think I was in third grade.

And back then, ADD, ADHD,
wasn't like here's this medicine

or here's this thing.

They want to put you
in a special school.

So for me, I was so
far behind in learning

that their big thing
was let's just put him

in a special school
because he'll never learn.

And through that
process of like I

don't want to be in
a special school,

I don't want to be treated
any differently, it really--

like I never took medication.

I've never taken
medication for this.

That's why right now you see
me looking right in your eyes.

What the hell is Huberman
saying right now.

And that's why I don't feel
bad for people who have ADHD,

who have learning disabilities.

And some are impossible
because you just can't.

But a lot of them you can.

But people don't want to go
through the process of focus,

of teaching yourself
how to truly focus.

This is where my
message gets lost.

It gets lost because I may
say MF or F because that's

the passion that
comes out of me.

It takes everything for
me to learn a sentence.

So when I speak
about David Goggins,

I can't speak about David
Goggins in a way that's

just calm and cool.

Because when I wake
up, I know the journey

that it takes for me
to find my greatness.

And it's hard.

Nothing is easy.

Nothing just like, oh, I
wake up, and I just do this

or I do that or it just--
no, I watch people every day

go through life,
and it's so easy.

For me to be where I'm at
today, it takes every bit of me.

So when I speak about it,
and as I get going here,

you'll start seeing me--
the tempo will rise.

The passion will come out
because I'm back there.

I'm doing what I do every
day to become a human being.

And so nothing is easy.

Like running is running.

It sucks.

But you have a choice to make.

Do you want to sit down and go
back to that guy you once were?

No.

So this is what it takes.

It takes that
misunderstanding of people.

And they'll never get it because
they were never David Goggins.

So that is what it takes
for me to do what I do.

It may take you
something differently.

So for me, everything
has to be in the study.

Everything has to be into this.

Everything has to
be in-- everywhere

I am it has to be there,
me, focused where I am.

That's why you're
my second podcast

I've done since Rogan,
since the book came out.

I don't have time for that shit
because if I want to be great,

I'm not trying to maximize money
or maximize people knowing me.

I do these things because
maybe someone out there will

understand me and get it and
say, I can grow from this guy,

and others just won't.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sounds
like friction is something

you're very familiar with.

It's a word just I feel
like is like cast above us

right now in bold face,
highlighted, underlined

letters.

DAVID GOGGINS:
Friction is growth.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Friction,
like you're up in the morning.

And I imagine David Goggins
going to the coffee maker,

stretching out, good
morning, sunshine.

And you're telling me from
eyelids open there's friction.

DAVID GOGGINS: Yes, and that
is the thing that people

don't-- they don't fucking get.

The biggest misunderstanding
about David Goggins

of all time--

it's like whether you
believe in God or not--

I do-- he put this lab rat,
which is me, on this planet

and said let me fucking
see what a beat up,

abused kid who can barely
learn, barely learn,

who has a twisted body, messed
up genetics, sickle cell, this

and that, let me
give him everything

that pretty much disqualifies
you from the military.

But back then, it wasn't as--
and let's put him in this

and see what comes out of it.

So to do that, friction--

you don't wake up
in the morning time

and go to the coffee maker.

Matter of fact, sometimes
you don't even sleep.

What it requires
is when I'm at--

2 o'clock-- it's 2
o'clock in the morning.

And my brain is thinking
about a fucking drug.

And I got to get up
and look in my book

to see what that drug
is, how I remember it.

And this is every day
of my fucking life.

That's why when I train a
fighter or I train someone,

I'm like, you have no fucking
idea how great you really

are because you are
using such minimal,

minimal of what you have.

And if people can learn to
focus, this is what's possible.

While it may not
be pretty-- like

people want to do a
documentary on me.

I go no.

I don't want to do
a documentary on me

because I will have normal
everyday people picking me

apart.

Oh, his life is miserable.

Who wants to live like that?

It's crazy how he-- it's
almost like he's sick.

He's psychotic.

The most frustrating
thing in the world for me

is when normal people
judge a man like myself

on what it really takes to
extract greatness from nothing.

It takes every bit of who you
are if you choose that route.

If you don't, Merry Christmas,
do what you got to do.

But, yeah, all these
things for me--

like I told you, man, I'm
going to keep it real.

I'm not coming here to talk
about perform without purpose

because I go through--

when I write these
books, I go through,

I try to dumb down
David Goggins.

How can I give normal
people-- and I'm normal.

But I found something that
most don't want to find.

How can I speak to
people and give them

something from this crazy
psychotic brain that I've

developed?

How can I give them that?

So I sit down with
Jennifer for years

and write down perform
without purpose,

callus your mind, armor
your mind, the cookie jar,

the accountability mirror, shit
that people can fucking use

in their lives.

No, no, I'm glad it helps you.

But the barbaric life that I
live that you have to live,

the almost obsession that
you must have to be great,

you can't put that shit
in a fucking book, bro.

You can't put in a book.

You can't.

You can't write about it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It
has to be experienced.

DAVID GOGGINS: It has
to be experienced.

And you can't even--

after you experience it,
to write it in the book,

it would seem like he
needs to be locked up.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Too gory.

DAVID GOGGINS: It's too gory.

Doesn't make sense for
a guy that everything,

every second of the
day he is trying

to extract more from something.

He's constantly thinking.

He's constantly,
constantly disciplined,

never going off the path.

Whatever is injured on
him, he figures away.

It's a conquerors mindset.

And very few people, if any, can
really understand what that is.

Like I'm almost 50.

And I've been this way
for almost 30 years.

Like what do you do for fun?

These questions,
I don't get them.

I don't understand them.

I don't-- so yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I get
asked that sometimes,

what do you do for fun.

I start listing off all this
stuff like podcasting, reading,

working out.

So some of that resonates.

But I think what's so
truly unusual about what

you're describing, your process
is that from go it's hard.

And I have to ask was being 300
pounds, having essentially--

I'm using the words
you've described.

DAVID GOGGINS: No, do it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
You've said it before.

You had a tendency at one
point in your life early

on tell lies, try and
get people's approval.

DAVID GOGGINS: Lied my ass off.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Crazy
haircuts, attention seeking,

and yet all of that
triggered something

that now is extraordinary.

Do you think those
hardships were

necessary to flip the switch?

DAVID GOGGINS: I don't know
if they were necessary,

but it was something
that made me feel--

I didn't feel good.

It was easy.

The brain that I was
given as a child,

it was easy to go
home and think about,

how do I want to
be a freak today?

How do I want to show up to
school today and be a freak?

It didn't require me going home
and opening a book up saying,

it's going to take me all year
to learn this fucking page.

So instead of
learning that page,

I learned how to
become a character.

And maybe that character
that I created,

that 300 pound,
insecure guy that

used to fake it till
I make it type of guy,

let me become your
friend, let me lie to you

until you like me type of guy--

when you have any manhood,
womanhood, a human being,

a soul, a spirit, any--

I must have just this much
pride because that's exactly

what opened the door for me.

Because every day,
you were a character.

Every day, you were a clown.

Every day, you opened that
Spanish book or that science

book or English book,
and you looked at it.

It looked like a
foreign language.

And you're saying,
where do I start?

Where do I start?

And, obviously,
it was necessary.

The more I talk about it, it
was necessary because what

happened is I became
haunted by the mere fact

that this is my existence.

And you got to live with that.

And I lived with it
for a lot of years.

And so I sat back and
said, OK, all right,

I know what this takes.

And when you sit back,
as fucked up as I was--

and I had a laundry
list, a table

like this of what I
have to do to become

just a human being that
can make ends meet,

that can make $1,000 a month.

Just to get there was like,
oh my god, dude, like how--

I'm 16, 17, I can't read.

I can't write.

Oh my god, I'm so
behind the power curve.

And my brain is about
being depressed.

And my dad beat--
my mom's not home.

And kids are calling
me nigger at school.

And I'm like, oh my god,
man, what the fuck do I do?

And it wasn't like someone
came around and said,

hey, man, you can do this.

This is all me.

Some people want to know where
does this cold man come from.

I'm not trying to be cold.

It's the reality of my life.

It's the reality of a
lot of people's lives.

And so, yeah, that had to
happen for me to be haunted,

to be haunted, to
pull out, to extract

the guy that I am today.

That haunting is something
that's still there today

because no matter
how much you improve,

no matter how much you
change who you are,

it's not permanent.

You don't just wake up
and say, oh my god, man,

you're David Goggins.

You break records.

You do this.

You do that.

People want to know, how are
you able to just be so hard?

Because I never turn
the fucking thing off.

Because once it turns
off, I go right back

to the David Goggins that is.

And that's the guy that I'm
constantly fighting every day.

And it's a choice.

And that choice makes
you misunderstood.

It makes you crazy.

That's why I hate
fucking social media.

In 2013, people wanted
me to write my book.

I did it in 2018.

Took five years.

And the reason why
I didn't do it--

I sat at the table,
and Jennifer was there.

This was before she
started working for me,

I started dating
her or whatever.

And all these people were there.

And they're like, man, you
got to go on social media.

And I was like, fuck you, man.

It's poison.

It's poison because I knew
what I did to get where I am.

And I'm going to
have these people,

these normal, everyday
people, fat, lazy,

exactly who I was judging me.

Because I know it
because I was once them.

All my hard work,
all my dedication,

I'm going to have
some normal dude get

his little brownie, his little
Ding Dong, Ho Ho, Twinkie,

sit there with his
coffee picking me apart.

Oh, he must be unhappy.

Do you know how hard it
is to put these shoes

on every damn morning?

And I'm gonna have
you pick me apart?

So, yeah, there's so
much that goes into this

that I was like fuck this.

I never wanted
anything to do with it.

So anyway.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm
not a psychologist.

But knowing your story
from what you've written,

what you've said
on social media,

and elsewhere, podcasts and
here now especially, it's

amazing to me, and,
frankly, it pulls

at my heartstrings
a little bit I

realize that's not what
you're trying to do

but that in the course of your
childhood and in your young

adulthood that no one ever
got between you and the world.

I forget where I heard it
that if a kid has just one

person that believes in them--

and I had my trials
and tribulations.

But I had great
coaches, great mentors.

I attached to them.

I found them if they
didn't necessarily find me.

But I'm realizing that your
situation was no one's ever

said, hey, I'm going to
stand here next to you

or get in front of
you, put a shield up.

And so it's almost like
you've got these different--

it's all you, but there's
versions of yourself--

that like you knew social
media-- like I don't know

that I have the wherewithal
in 2013 '14, '15, '16,

'17 to get in front
of myself while doing

all this because I've already
got so much going on in here.

Is that about right?

DAVID GOGGINS: That is right.

But I had developed
a lot of anger.

And I still have it.

And it will never go away
for the normal human beings

of this world because when
you put yourself in the sewer

like I was in-- and please,
if someone saved me,

come out and announce
it to the world.

There was no one.

There's no one.

So when you know that--

and then I'm
sitting at the table

with all these smart
people who are telling

me what to do and shit and
guiding me through my life

now when I'm 40
fucking years old.

It's 2000-- I don't know
40-something years old.

Now I'm 49.

And I'm looking at them all.

And they're now
trying to guide me

on what's right on this poison.

And so, yeah, what
you say is right.

But for me, it was
more of I know now.

I don't need you
to guide my future.

I know what's good for
me and what's bad for me.

And for me, it took every
bit of focus I could.

And I know social media--

that's why people love to go on
there because they want to show

you the good side of life.

I'm not teaching
good side of life.

So I had to figure
out a way when

I came on 2016 of teaching
you what life really is

for the majority of us is hell.

And so while people love to show
you the cars, and the house,

and the vacations and
shit, all that's good.

All that's happy.

I'm going to show you the
side that I know most of you

are going through.

And people hide very well.

I don't want to hide anymore.

I hid it for 24 fucking years.

So that's why now
when I told you

we can talk about
whatever you want

because as human beings, the
first thing we have to learn--

I also stuttered
real bad growing up.

So if you hear me stutter
every now and then,

it's because that was
part of my life also.

So it's funny.

Human beings want to
show you the best side.

And they want to
hide the worst side.

For me, I'm going
to teach you how

to be vulnerable because that's
the only way you fix yourself.

You don't fix yourself
by coming out here

and me selling you
some fucking books.

That's why I don't have them.

I forgot them.

I'm glad people got
something from the book.

I want you to learn that
the only way you grow

is how to look at
yourself and say, OK,

like I did, table longer than
this, what the fuck I have

to do to get somewhere?

There was nothing good
on there, nothing.

Yeah, I loved
playing basketball.

I left that out.

That's something I love to do.

I don't care about that.

That didn't make
the fucking list

because the list
that I had to live by

was the very list that was
going to get me at this table

with you to talk to you to
the normal human beings, which

I once was, about how you can
get somewhere and how it looks.

It looks very ugly.

There's no fucking passion.

There's no fucking motivation.

There's no, oh my
god, man, I fucking--

no, it's every day of
your life just doing,

no passion, no discipline, no
motivation, all these words.

I hate that so many people
fucking use these words now

because it's watered.

Someone sitting in
the room by themselves

and they figure themselves
out and say, god, this

is going to fucking suck.

Where's passion when
you're 300 pounds?

Where's the motivation when
you can't read and write?

Where is it?

So how did this happen?

I just fucking did.

I just did.

I said maybe at the
end of this journey,

there will be
something there for me.

If not, I can read.

If not, I'm 185 fucking pounds.

There was no magic potion.

There was no, oh, let me wake
up and look at some shit.

No.

All those words are overused.

They're bullshit.

It's all bullshit.

Just do.

You're living.

How do you want to live?

How do you want to die?

How do you want to
fucking be remembered?

That's it.

That's it.

Period.

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The word haunted is
ringing in my head.

DAVID GOGGINS: Yep.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I think
it's such a powerful word.

DAVID GOGGINS: Yep.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
Because I was about to m

it seems like a huge part
of your process, maybe

the entire process, is
it's all stick no carrot,

you talk about the carrot,
the positive thing.

And then there's the stick, the
thing you're trying to avoid.

I feel like it's-- the way
it's landing for me is it's all

stick and gas pedal.

DAVID GOGGINS: That's it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
There's no carrot.

You're not imagining, oh,
when I'm a paramedic, when

the book is published.

And, obviously, you
set those goals,

and you make those targets.

But it's all stick.

DAVID GOGGINS: All stick.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No carrot.

DAVID GOGGINS: Think about that.

I'm waking up
right now studying.

Like I have a test tomorrow.

I already passed
the fucking test.

Think about that.

Every day in my life,
that's what I must do just

to retain what I learned.

Four hours plus a day, I
go through and do that.

There's no stick.

Or there's only a stick.

There's never been
a carrot, which

is why when I speak to
people, I have to figure out

a way to resonate with them.

Because all I want
to say to them

is let me teach you the
real life, how it really is.

The reason why you're a loser
and the reason why you're not

fucking making it and
the reason why you're

trying to go to all these--

I go to all these
fucking conventions,

speak all the fucking time.

I look in the fucking audience.

And these people
sign up, sign up,

sign up fucking every
year go to a convention,

thinking they're going to learn
something fucking different.

No, you're lazy.

You know exactly what to
do, exactly what to do.

Because even me in my state
of I can't read and write,

I knew exactly what to do.

It just sucks doing it.

It sucks to do it.

It sucks to wake up every
morning of your life

and say, god, man,
I'm not smart.

So guess what I got to do.

I got to study the same shit
that I got one of the highest

scores in the nation on and
do it again, and do it again,

and do it again.

It's not just there.

It's not just there
permanently for me.

So, yeah, it's all stick.

It's all stick.

The only carrot you have
is like maybe, maybe.

Because whenever I take these
tests that are real hard,

the back of my brain
is like a good chance

you're not going to
make it, Goggins.

This ain't you, bro.

This ain't you.

You weren't born like this.

This ain't you.

The real you, bro--

study all you want to.

But the second that
fucking computer

comes on with 150 questions,
this ain't you, man.

And somehow, comes back.

I passed.

I passed again, passed again.

But that real me back
here every fucking time

is saying that ain't you, bro.

That ain't you.

And I have to
outwork that voice.

When I'm taking
that test and I get

to a question I don't
fucking know the answer,

I'm like fuck, man.

And then say, see
I told you, man.

That ain't you.

You're 300 pounds, man.

You sit at home.

You figure out how
to do your hair.

That's what you do,
how to come to school

with the reverse
baldness when you're 16.

That's you.

So there is no get
out of jail free card.

This is why I say stay hard.

Because when you
weren't given the gifts,

the only thing you can
do in life is stay hard.

And I know people
cannot stand me.

They can't stand this talk.

This is all you can do.

There's no magic pill
or a magic potion.

All you can do is
outwork the man

that God created
or woman in you.

And what that looks
like is unfun.

That's why I said, do not
do a documentary on me

because people will
not see the truth.

They will see what
they want to see is

I don't want to live like that.

Good, good.

And you will live
exactly the way

you live now,
questioning who you are,

wondering what is
possible, wondering

what you are capable of doing.

That's how that looks or you
can be me, which am I happy?

I don't know.

Never really thought about it.

Don't really care about
it because all I really

cared about was when I looked
in that fucking mirror,

I saw a piece of shit.

Happiness wasn't on the mirror
at 16 or when I was 300 pounds.

It wasn't like, I'm
looking for happiness.

No, I'm looking at myself in
the mirror and say, all right,

motherfucker, you
did it again today.

You're a bad boy
because that shit sucks.

I have about a couple of minutes
of that that I got the carrot.

The second I lay down and
go to bed, the carrots gone

because I'm waking up all
through the night to check

the work I did that day.

Did I get this drug right?

Did I get this right?

Did I get that right?

What did I do?

Oh my god, fuck, I'm
already losing it.

Stick.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: That
stick's haunting you.

DAVID GOGGINS: Haunting me.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's
following you around.

So no picture of
Jordan on the wall.

You're not listening to
YouTube inspiration video.

DAVID GOGGINS: No.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Those would
be all your voice anyway.

[LAUGHTER]

You're not listening to
your top 10 favorite songs

just to get rolling and then
lace the shoes, hit the books.

It's all in here.

DAVID GOGGINS: All in there.

I used to do that
when I was fat.

Rocky, I mean,
that was my thing.

Round 14 was my thing.

And as I got older and older and
older, that started to go away.

And I started to create--

I had all these people
that I used to watch.

Rocky was one, Barnes,
Elias from "Platoon,"

Jack from "A Few Good Men" when
he's on the stand going crazy.

I saw a lot of these
characters that I looked at

and I was like, man, I
ain't got none of that.

But they were characters.

After a while, I lived
a life so disciplined

that every body
that I once looked

to, these fake characters,
I built that as a man.

And when I was younger, I
had this image in my mind

of what does a man
look like to me?

And I got all these people
who are badasses, characters.

And in my mind, I became that.

And that's what kept
me going a lot was

I had this pipe dream of
becoming a little bit of this

and a little bit of
that because when

you have no parents
raising you and you

have no role models growing
up, it's not daydreaming.

You start to create a reality
like, mm, maybe I can be that.

And after becoming
this guy, that

is the biggest thing I
can ever do in my life is

I became that guy.

That I once looked at
all these, guys and now

I look at myself like, god,
who the fuck can do that?

I can.

But what it takes
is a discipline

that no one can ever even--

they don't understand it.

They don't understand it.

But everybody has
the ability to do it,

but they just don't want to.

They want to keep
asking questions

and keep going to seminars.

And the greatness
is right in you.

And that's why once again--

I say this a million times here,
I do not feel sorry for you.

I will not sugarcoat
what I'm going

to say to you because
all of you know

what I'm saying is the truth.

Everybody knows it's the truth.

This is what it looks like.

And you know it too.

You know it too.

If you ain't got nothing, I hate
to tell you what it looks like.

It's ugly.

It's not a documentary.

It's not an HBO special.

You ain't going to
watch me like, hey, man,

you guys gotta watch this.

No, it's like, oh, god, this
looks like a train wreck.

It's like a nightmare.

This looks like this guy's got--
no, that's what it looks like.

Hard work looks horrible.

It's not motivating.

It's not motivating at all.

It ain't like Rocky round 14
where he gets knocked down

and goes like this
to Apollo Creed.

Looks like a man being
stuck in a fucking dungeon.

And there's no fucking way out.

But you have the fucking key.

But you refuse to use it.

And that's nothing
motivating about that.

So, yes, no documentary
on David Goggins.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: The real life--

DAVID GOGGINS: The real life.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --David
Goggins is the documentary.

It's already being written.

You're it.

DAVID GOGGINS: Right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I'm going
to share a little neuroscience

tidbit.

DAVID GOGGINS: Love it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
But I think it's one

that you'll appreciate.

Most people don't
know this, but there's

a brain structure called the
anterior mid-cingulate cortex.

As we pointed out
before, that's a noun.

It's a name.

It doesn't mean anything.

We could call it
the Cookie Monster.

But what's interesting
about this brain

area is there are
now a lot of data

in humans, not some mouse study,
showing that when people do

something they don't
want to do like add three

hours of exercise
per day or per week

or when people who are trying
to diet and lose weight

resist eating something,
when people do anything

that they, and this
is the important part,

that they don't want to do,
it's not about adding more work.

It's about adding more work
that you don't want to do.

This brain area gets bigger.

Now here's what's especially
interesting about this brain

area to me.

And by the way, I'm
only learning this

recently because it's new data.

But there's a lot of it.

The anterior
mid-cingulate cortex

is smaller in obese people.

It gets bigger when they diet.

It's larger in athletes.

It's especially
large or grows larger

in people that see
themselves as challenged

and overcome some challenge.

And in people that
live a very long time,

this area keeps its size.

In many ways,
scientists are starting

to think of the anterior
mid-cingulate cortex not just

as one of the seats of
willpower but perhaps actually

the seat of the will to live.

DAVID GOGGINS: See,
now we're talking.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
And when I learned

about the anterior
mid-cingulate cortex,

I was like almost
out of my seat.

And I've been in the
neuroscience game

since I was 20.

DAVID GOGGINS:
Now we're talking.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
We're the same age.

And I was so pumped because I've
heard of the amygdala, fear,

prefrontal cortex.

It's planning an action.

I could tell you every
brain area and every--

I teach neuroanatomy
to medical students.

But when I started
seeing the data

on the anterior mid-cingulate
cortex, I was like, whoa,

this is interesting.

And all the data
point to the fact

that we can build this area up.

But that as quickly
as we build it up,

if we don't continue to invest
in things that are hard for us,

that we don't want to
do-- that's the part that

feels so Goggin-esque to me,
that we don't want to do.

Like if you love the ice bath--
yeah, I love the ice bath--

and you go from 1
minute to 10 minutes,

guess what, your anterior
mid-cingulate cortex did not

grow.

DAVID GOGGINS: None.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: But if
you hate the cold water,

if you're afraid of drowning
and you get into water

and put your head
under and survive,

then the anterior mid-cingulate
cortex gets bigger.

But if you don't do it the next
day or if you do it the next

day and you enjoy it because,
hey, hey, I did it yesterday,

woo-hoo, happy me, Merry
Christmas as you would say--

DAVID GOGGINS: Right.

Merry Christmas.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --guess
what, the anterior

mid-cingulate cortex
shrinks again.

To me, this is one of the
most important discoveries

that neuroscience has
ever made because it's

that I don't want to do
something but do it anyway

that grows this area.

And it's almost like--

I have a friend.

He's been sober 30
years from alcohol.

And he always says, the
amazing thing about addiction

is there's a cure.

The problem is it only
works one day at a time.

And so you have to
renew it every day.

DAVID GOGGINS: That's right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So the anterior
mid-cingulate cortex to me--

when I learned about it, two
things went off in my head.

Whoa, this is super interesting.

And, two, I got to tell
David Goggins about this.

And I waited until now--

DAVID GOGGINS: I'm glad.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --to tell
you because I felt like, well,

for obvious reasons
I wanted to tell you

and I wanted to tell you here.

DAVID GOGGINS: Well, I
love that because that's

how I've lived my entire life.

I don't know
anything about that.

But people go, man, you
have such a strong will.

It's something that you build.

Like I never forget I was
on a podcast one time.

And this dude goes you were
blessed with a strong mind.

Like the hell are
you talking about I

was blessed with a strong mind?

That's something that
you have to develop.

You develop that over
years, decades of suffering

and going back into the suffer.

That's why a lot of people who
graduate Navy SEAL training,

they want to know--

I talk about it very
openly all the time.

A lot of guys don't want
to go back into that water,

don't want to go back
into the hard stuff.

And maybe not-- anything
hard, anything hard

in life, once you get through
it, it's like you become a POW.

Like how many POWs you know
want to go back to POW camp?

None.

When something sucks
so bad in life--

this is on this that
we're talking about now--

very few people want to go back.

They're happy they graduated.

I realized I'm the same way.

I don't want to go back.

I have to go back.

I must go back because that is
exactly where all the knowledge

of my life exists was back
there in what you're exactly

what you're talking about.

Well, I didn't know
anything about this.

But how I grew a will was
constantly doing these things

to now it's just life.

I wake up.

While it still sucks,
it's just life.

You don't sit back
and like, oh my god.

Like I have days I
don't want to do.

But I know I'm going to do it.

I know from years
of just doing it.

So that's beautiful.

And this is why I came
on here with you today.

And I'm glad that you're talking
about this because human beings

need to hear this.

They need to stop hearing
these hacks on this and that.

There's no fucking hack, bro.

There's no fucking hack.

Yeah, you may this and that
and saunas and all this shit

that they-- yeah, it's great.

There is no fucking life hack.

To grow that thing--
how do you grow it?

Do it, and do it,
and do it, and do it.

That's the hack.

The hack is going
to fucking suck.

And that's what I realized.

That's what I realized.

That's why I wanted
to come on here today.

I didn't want to
come on here and talk

about no fucking
passion and purpose

and how to get the
fuck out of bed

and how to hit a
fucking alarm clock,

all this catchphrase bullshit
because that wasn't how

I lived, wasn't how I lived.

I lived, I woke up like
every human being does

and goes fuck, man.

I'm a fucking piece
of shit today.

How the hell is this
going to work out for me?

And you fight that.

And you fight that.

You don't override it.

There's no override button.

It's the conversation
in your head.

So how do you do that?

We don't have enough
of these conversations

about the real conversation that
every human being is having.

And they have no idea
how to get out of it.

But they do is that
shit right there, man.

You got to build your will.

How you build your will?

Exactly what you said, man.

Exactly what you said.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well,
I feel like knowing

the name of something,
anterior mid-cingulate cortex,

doesn't fundamentally change us.

But one thing I
like about biology

is that willpower, if somebody
feels they don't have it,

feels like this thing
that other people have.

But everybody, unless
they're brain-damaged,

like a hole through their
head, has two anterior

mid-cingulate cortex, one
on each side of their brain.

Everyone has one.

They have two.

So I feel like it's just a
question of opening the portal.

And the portal-- again,
I'm going to say 10 times,

and forgive me--
is I think people

go, oh, I do hard things.

I do sets to failure.

And then I do forced reps.

I love training with weights.

I love doing sets to failure.

I even like forced reps.

But guess what?

I like forced reps.

So I'll tell you,
they don't build

my anterior mid-cingulate
cortex because I like to do it.

Anything you like
to do is not going

to enhance this
aspect of willpower.

And it seems so obvious
once you hear it.

You kind of go, oh
yeah, of course.

But I think you really
close that loop for people

when you share what
you're sharing today

and what you've shared
elsewhere before as well.

When you're trying to
explain the friction

is the critical ingredient.

And I think people think,
oh, if it's effort, well,

then I'm getting better.

That's part of it, necessary,
but not sufficient,

as we say in science.

But the suck part, the haunt,
being haunted, the stick,

they're really unpleasant terms.

These are probably the most
unpleasant terms we've ever

used on this podcast.

Those are the--
those are the levers.

Those are the gears.

And without those, this thing
that you're talking about,

David Goggins, as a verb--

I sometimes make the
joke, but it's not a joke.

Goggins is a name,
and it's a verb.

People go, I'm on
to Goggins that.

But that's, I think--

again, I'm not a psychologist.

But I think that's what
you're talking about,

the stick, the
friction, being haunted.

It's the suck part that grows
this anterior mid-cingulate

cortex.

DAVID GOGGINS: So
now you know why

there's so many people
that fail in this world

to figure out their purpose,
their purpose in life.

Where do I go?

Because to grow that, now,
you may not look like me,

how my daily life looks.

It don't look fun.

Don't look fun.

So it's a choice that
people have to make in life.

But what's so funny about it
is even the richest of rich,

who have everything, they
always ask me this question.

I feel like I'm
missing something.

I don't feel like
I'm missing shit.

I don't have what you all have.

But you will never in
my life hear me tell you

I'm missing something.

And everybody is.

They're missing this feeling.

I found it a long time ago.

And I found it right there
in that willpower thing.

When you're nothing,
nothing, and change yourself

into something, like me, you
call it happiness, peace,

whatever the fuck
you want to call it,

people are missing exactly what
went on with David Goggins.

Why don't you smile?

I do.

I do.

But I figured something out.

That's why I am never--

you never hear me say,
I'm missing something.

I found it years ago.

You find it in the suck.

You find it in the suck.

And you find it repeatedly
in the suck to the point

where you know
exactly who you are.

Most people are
missing something

because they don't
know who they are.

They never examined themselves.

They've never done this
experiment on themselves.

The lab rat.

We're all lab rats.

But you're also the scientist.

You create your own self.

Most people are
missing something

because there's so
much trapped in there.

I don't even want
to say potential.

I think that's a word--
it's used out too much too.

There's so much in you that
God or whoever the hell

you believe in or if
you're an atheist in you

that you have not unlocked,
that you walk around

with this gorgeous wife or great
husband and all this money.

You're like, god, I feel
like I'm missing something.

Yeah, because it's
about 75% of you

is still fucking in there, still
chained up because you just

didn't want to find
your willpower,

didn't want to find your
soul, your will, your heart,

your determination,
your guts, your courage.

And what that looks
like, it looks scary,

like you're little
scary lab that went in.

Scary to wake up every
day and say, I'm stupid,

but I'm going to
figure out a way

to be smarter versus saying,
man, I just can't do that.

So you limit this box.

So your box becomes so
small of things you can do.

My box wasn't even a box.

It was a fucking little pinhole.

And then through
examining myself,

getting some willpower,
some courage,

it became bigger
than this table.

But that's what we all do.

That's why I wanted to
come here today and talk

to you about real shit,
not no fucking hacks.

There's no hacks, bro.

It's you against you.

You against you.

And if you
misunderstand that, you

have a real problem,
real problem.

I can understand
you misunderstand

me, running down the street,
shirt off, fuck this, no.

Yeah.

I can get it.

I get it.

If you misunderstand what
I'm saying right now today,

the problem is you.

And you don't want to fix it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, the
children of wealthy people

are a case study in how
not having enough friction

can destroy a life.

DAVID GOGGINS: True statement.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I
mean, I could list off

prominent names in the press.

But those are actually
the least interesting.

What's probably more
interesting, as an example,

is all the ones we don't
hear about because we never

hear about them.

They just dwindle and wither.

Or I think there's this
big category of people,

I'm realizing, as we have this
conversation today that they're

not super successful.

They're not struggling.

They're successful enough
that they never have to--

you can get to the
point where you

don't have to impose friction.

You even said it.

Your bank account is in a
place where you don't really

need to do all
the things you do,

probably not even a
small fraction of them.

DAVID GOGGINS: Do nothing.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.

But you realize the
stick and being haunted

is the fuel and the engine.

And you'd be a-- you'd be
truly crazy to give that up

because you've
internalized all that.

But most people, they're
good enough for them.

And so they don't actually
want to be better badly enough

in order to start
going rung after rung.

DAVID GOGGINS: Well, think
about when you build willpower.

And think about how
much I've built.

Now that you know about this--

I didn't know about this.

But think about how
much I've built.

Everything I've ever done in
my life, I didn't want to do.

Everything every day.

I'm a lazy piece of shit.

And I'm one of the hardest
working people to ever step

foot on this planet Earth.

And I'm saying that very proudly
because I know what I do.

It's not cocky.

I'll tell you I'm stupid.

And I'll also tell you the exact
opposite of what I've done.

It's the truth.

It is the truth.

So imagine how much I've
developed in that time frame.

But this is the scary thing.

Why most people don't want to
do that and build that willpower

is because it is scary.

It unlocks a whole bunch
of things about who you are

and who you're not.

And a lot of people don't
want to go down that journey

to discover who they
are and who they're not

because it's not
a pretty journey.

I mean, I've gone down it.

It's not like I
went down it once.

I go down it all the time.

And when you unlock that-- and
you can't just turn it off.

Like, people say, hey, how
come you haven't retired yet?

I built all this willpower.

Do you think it's
going to let me just

retire because my knees hurt?

It is telling me every morning--

I wake up, and I'm like,
man, my knees hurt.

My legs hurt.

My body hurts.

But you can still run.

So why aren't you running?

If you can still run--

there will be a time when you
can't lace them up anymore.

But you can still run.

So I still run.

When the time comes I can't
run, the body will say,

you just can't run.

But if I can still
do something, that

willpower that I
have created, it

makes me do it
every fucking day.

And that's what they don't get.

What builds a human being is you
start with the small building

blocks.

And before you know it,
man, you become something

that it doesn't even
make sense to most people

because it's just
who you are now.

That's why I can still
run at 50 with broke--

at 49 with broke down
knees and broke down body

because my body
knows you still can.

Therefore, I do.

Second you stop, the
willpower is gone.

And that's beautiful.

I'm so glad you brought that to
me because I always wondered,

what's this
separation thing now?

At 24 years old, I
started building something

that I didn't even
know was going

to be what it is now at 49.

And that's all it was.

It was just that.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: This structure,
anterior mid-cingulate cortex,

has inputs and outputs
from a bunch of places.

But you'll probably not
be surprised to learn

that it's strongly activated
when we move our body when

we don't want to move our body.

I feel like it's like the
David Goggins structure.

DAVID GOGGINS: It really is.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It is.

And it also has
strong connections

to the dopamine reward pathway.

And everyone goes,
yay, dopamine.

Everyone loves dopamine.

I'm partially responsible
for people knowing a bit more

about dopamine.

But dopamine's badly understood.

Everyone thinks
dopamine, dopamine hits.

It's about reward.

It's about motivation and drive.

And there are pain inputs to the
dopamine centers of the brain.

No one talks about that.

Everyone's like, oh, you want
the chocolate, chocolate, sex,

cocaine.

Yeah, that's all true.

It'll release dopamine.

Pain releases dopamine.

The anterior
mid-cingulate cortex

can trigger the release
of dopamine in response

to this thing that
we're calling friction.

And that's a learned thing.

That's something that
no animal or human being

comes into the world learning.

We all are averse to pain.

And like pleasure,
like sugar, fat.

Don't like hot surfaces.

But this is a
structure that learns.

It has neuroplasticity,
the ability

to change throughout
the entire life span.

And here's the
part that I think,

again, is just neuro nerd
speak for what you already know

and have done and exemplify,
is that people say,

oh, it has plasticity.

You can change it.

But guess what?

It has plasticity
in both directions.

It can grow.

But just as easily as it can
grow, it's like Silly Putty,

it can shrink.

So it requires constant upkeep.

And that answer isn't one
that people are going to like.

They're like, give
me the energy drink.

Give me the supplement.

Give me the-- give me
the sauna protocol that's

going to make my anterior
mid-cingulate cortex-- there's

someone out there
right now who's going,

wait, if I took transcranial
magnetic stimulation

and I stimulate-- yeah, you'd
probably-- actually, they've

done that.

They stuck a little
wire during neurosurgery

into this structure.

This was actually
discovered by a colleague

of mine, Joe Parvizi.

Stimulate.

And the patients go, I feel
like there's a storm coming.

And they go, oh, is it scary?

And they go, no, I
want to go through it.

They come off the stimulation,
and people are like--

this is the seat of what
we're talking about.

DAVID GOGGINS: Right.

Exactly.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And it learns.

So the fact that you've
kept this brain structure--

I'm convinced if we imaged
your brain, it'd be large,

and it would be larger
in two years, in a year.

But this is the no days off
rationale because it can grow,

and it can shrink.

DAVID GOGGINS: I know.

What you're saying right now,
I didn't know any of this.

And I never-- and I
always talk to you.

But I wish I could
just put this on paper.

And you're saying it in a way
that people can understand.

I can never put it into
words on what I built

and the power that
is within all of us.

But you put it so
in a scientific way.

Most people, for
me, he's just crazy.

That's why I don't like
talking about it, man.

I know I'm not crazy.

I know what I had to do
to get where I had to go.

People look at it as crazy
because there are people

that just--

if you can't imagine
yourself doing something,

if you can't imagine
yourself doing something,

the person that's
doing it is crazy

because in your mind, the logic
behind it, it doesn't compute.

Therefore, you have to
give somebody a title.

And the title for me
is usually he's crazy

or he's this, he's that.

No.

No.

For some reason, me
wanting to be somebody

so fucking bad in my
life, I created that.

And I've been
trying to figure out

years of my life trying
to explain to people.

But even though you're
explaining it now,

this is the easy fucking part.

Them listening to this shit
is the easy fucking part.

The part that why they're
always be the ones of ones

is because putting
that practice,

putting that into
actual work, no, man.

No.

No.

That's where the demons come in.

That's where you're like,
I don't want to be better.

I don't want to be better.

If this is what it
takes to be better,

I don't want to be better.

So everybody's-- that's why
there's a lot of average.

And it makes me so fucking mad.

Every day I walk this
Earth, and I see average

all over the fucking place.

And they want to ask
me, how did you do it?

I can't tell you how because
you're not going to fucking--

you're not going to do it.

You're not going to do it you.

You're just going to--

You're going to continue
being like this every day

you wake up.

Like you said, it's
like, get the coffee.

Make the pancakes.

Kiss the girl.

Kiss the kids.

You wake up, right to work.

Immediate, your
mind is in action.

No one wants to do that.

No one.

And I don't blame them.

But don't be mad when
you're laying there

in your fucking bed, and
you're in the fucking hospital,

and you're 70, 80, 90 years old.

And you're thinking,
man, I feel like I

didn't fucking do something.

Because you did.

You didn't do it.

You didn't do shit.

You may have lived
a great life, man,

but you're always going
to feel empty inside.

I don't feel empty.

So call me what you want.

There's not one empty
bone in my fucking body

because I have figured
out that really--

the magic potion,
at least to my life.

And it's very rewarding.

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People like to talk about what
they used to be able to do.

I hear this a lot.

You should have seen
me in high school.

I always laugh.

Like, yeah, OK.

Got it.

And it's not just guys.

You should have seen me
working out in high school.

I was super fit.

People will look
back to a time where

they felt like they were
capable of something.

And now they're not.

And you kind of want to
just grab them and go, wait.

That was you then.

It's you now.

And but people tend
to think about how

the conditions that
were around success

must have been part of it.

And you can understand why.

It's very rational.

I was in that situation.

I was successful.

I'm in this situation.

I'm not.

That was the past.

This is the present.

Ergo, capable.

You see how people
get into these loops.

And as you mentioned, you spent
the first 20 years of your life

in extremely challenged
circumstances.

And then you can see how
people get to a point

where everything feels hard.

Like, when you're 300 pounds--

I haven't ever been 300 pounds.

But I can't imagine it feels
good to get up and move around.

DAVID GOGGINS: It's defeating.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I got a friend.

He's in excess of 300 pounds.

We've been trying
on him for years.

But no win.

And he's got crazy psoriasis
on the back of his calves.

And he actually
smells bad sometimes

because he can't wash
as well as he would.

He's big, big.

And it pulls all my sympathy.

But life is very hard for
him and getting worse.

He's a young guy with
a lot of medical issues

now, for obvious reasons.

And so I think people like that
think, well, it's already hard.

Why would I make it harder?

Your message is a
little different.

And you have the
life experience.

DAVID GOGGINS: It's
a lot different.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
You've been there.

So for me, saying, oh
yeah, lose weight--

I was a skinny guy who got
to be a less skinny guy.

So I don't really have
a foot to stand on.

What do you say to those
people who are like,

listen, getting up in
the morning is hard.

Trying to not dissolve into
a puddle of my own tears

and my own misery is hard.

DAVID GOGGINS: You know why
people connect with my books

so well?

For some reason, God put me
in almost every fucked up

situation on the planet Earth.

So when I talk to people,
it's not sugar-coated

because I'm not saying it from I
was a 175 pounds my whole life.

I don't say much
to those people.

Maybe you're a piece of shit.

Maybe you want to be nobody.

Maybe you're happy exactly
where you are in life

because obviously, you are.

Maybe you don't have
the determination

to be somebody better
than who you are.

And if you want to live with
that, I'll support you in that.

If you're good with being who
you are, that every day you

wake up, and every day, you
smell like shit because you

can't wash your body well,
and your skin is messed up

because your health's
so bad, and you

can't put your clothes on
right, you need help with that.

You need help like--
when I was 300 pounds,

I needed help wiping my ass.

That makes you feel good?

Nothing I can say to you.

If every day you wake up with
this-- see, people are haunted.

But they obviously
like horror films

because they keep watching
the same fucking movie.

I don't like horror films.

A lot of people
like horror films.

So I don't say much to them.

I say exactly what I
said to you right there

because I was once you.

I didn't like horror
films, so I changed it.

Some people are just--

they become-- like you
said, it gets real small

when you're lazy and
you're fat, your will.

Their will is so small
that they don't have any.

And you can't give it to them.

There has to be
something-- this is

what I'm talking about now
because this isn't a hack.

This has to be in you.

Something in you has to wake up.

And usually, the only person
that can wake it up is you.

Sometimes you can read
a David Goggins book

because I was all this shit and
then a lot more of fucked up.

But if you don't have a
little flame, just barely--

you're done.

I can't light it for you.

And that's the harsh
reality of this life

that I want to get
across so fucking bad.

You can watch me.

You can watch you.

You can watch fucking
Rogan and Cameron

Hanes, all these motherfuckers.

You can go to Tony
Robbins's fucking bullshit,

all this shit.

You can do all this shit.

You're going to keep
going back and keep

spending money and
spending money and spending

money with no results.

You're going to wonder, wow.

Maybe let me go try
out David Goggins.

He ain't going to
fucking help you.

You have to explore, examine
the insides of yourself.

And what do you really
want out of life?

Your friend and a lot
of people out here

just don't fucking want it.

So guess what?

Have fun with your life.

Go from 300 to 350
to 400 to 450 to 500

because you don't want it.

And that's the harsh reality.

I can't give you shit.

You can't give them shit.

We can give you ideas.

But end of the day, when
I was losing the weight,

I had to miserably wake up
every morning in the cold

because it was Indiana,
November, when it started.

I was miserable.

This is your new life.

Take it or leave it.

There's no happiness about it.

There's no peace behind it.

It sucks.

It just fucking sucks.

And that's the one thing, if I
could teach anybody anything,

it just fucking sucks.

And it's going to
continue to suck.

And then one day, you'll get
to a special part in your life

that it might get a
little bit better.

But to lose the weight you
have to lose, my friend, sorry.

It's going to suck every
fucking day because then when

you're 300 pounds, you're
going to go out to lose weight,

you could probably get injured.

So then you got to
work on the injury.

And then you get
even more depressed.

This is what I went through.

And then you're hungry
because now you're depressed.

It's just a vicious cycle.

And if you're not
strong mentally

and you have no
willpower, you're

going to continue
falling back in this hole

versus the man that
sits back and goes,

all right, motherfucker.

This is why I cuss because
this is what is in me.

This is what it took
for me to be me.

Sorry.

It didn't take, hey, OK,
we're going to do this today.

No.

This fucking really sucks.

This is real, dude.

This is real.

And every day, I'm set back.

I'm set back.

I'm set back.

I'm set back.

So this is what I
would tell your boy.

This is exactly
what I'd tell him.

Every day you wake up,
you're going to probably

be set back for the
first four weeks

before you lose significant
weight because the mind is

going to be fucking
with you the whole time.

There's no dopamine.

There's no dopamine in
there at 300 pounds.

You got nothing.

Your hormones are shot.

You have to envision something
that is more powerful than you.

Something has to
get you out of bed.

And you have to create it.

It has to be false
because you're not it.

You're a fat piece of shit.

And that's the reality of it.

So you have to create a false
reality, to live in that

just to get to work on yourself.

That's the reality.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He'll
see this, and he'll

appreciate that message.

We'll see what he does.

DAVID GOGGINS: We'll see.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So far, last
13 years, it's been no movement.

But I have had other
friends who were

drug and alcohol addicts who
quit after one conversation.

Never went back.

DAVID GOGGINS: That's awesome.

That means they want it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, just
one guy, I won't out him,

but walked up to me at a
party in 2019, July 4th party,

and said, I'm a pile.

And I go, what?

And he goes, I'm a pile.

Look at me.

I'm 60 pounds overweight.

And I go, do you drink?

He goes, every day.

I go, how much?

He goes, a case.

He goes, I smoke a lot of weed.

But he's successful in
other areas of his life.

And so I said, well,
here's what I know.

Quit alcohol and weed for you.

I'm not telling
people what to do.

Don't eat until 2:00 PM.

Get on an exercise
bike, and pedal

in the morning like someone's
chasing you with a poison dart

until you want to puke.

And I was kind of half-joking.

And then two months
later, he was, like,

I haven't had a drink.

I lost 30 pounds.

He lost those 60 pounds.

He never went back.

Now, he's super fit.

It's amazing.

So some people flip the switch.

He is very
self-critical by nature.

DAVID GOGGINS:
That's what flips--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's
super self-critical.

DAVID GOGGINS: Yep.

That's what flips the switch.

Think about it, man.

We know what to do.

We don't need Andrew Huberman
to tell us what to do.

We know what to do,
every one of us.

That's why he flipped it so
fast because he knew what to do.

He didn't go by
your exact protocol.

He didn't go by the exact--

no.

He knew exactly what to do.

And you just saying some shit
to him, it woke something up.

He knew what to do.

And that's the thing that
people need to get that.

You know what to do.

Why aren't you doing it?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And I'm
talking about myself now.

Those modes of just kind
of passive consumption,

they're so easy to wash over us.

I used to have this thing,
and I'm fighting this

now because I knew we were
going to have this conversation

today, where I like
to start things

on the hour or the half hour.

Worst practice in
the world for me

because if I miss that half
hour, I'm like, oh, it's 12:33.

I'll start at 12:45.

Ah, it's 12:45.

I'll start at 1:00.

I just lost time.

And so this is so stupid.

And the other day,
I was like, man, I

got to tell David about this
because my new thing is I start

no matter what time it is.

If I wake up in the
middle of the night--

I got a friend.

He paints in the
middle of the night.

I'm like, you're an insomniac?

He's like, I don't know.

I just do it.

Then sometimes he
goes back to sleep.

Sometimes he doesn't.

Everyone's got their thing.

But I thought about this.

I'm like, no more am I
going to say I'm starting

at 1:00 because I know me.

If I miss the 1:00 ding and then
my pen's not hitting the paper

or I'm not typing
on the keyboard,

I'm not going to do it.

But That's a
self-admitted weakness.

DAVID GOGGINS: I love it, man.

I had that for a lot of years.

I know I'm going to do it.

That's the haunting part is
that it's going to happen.

It has to happen.

And that's a fact.

Like, there's no get out
of jail free card, bro.

None.

Like, that is a life
that I don't know.

I don't have that ability.

Or I have the ability.

I don't have the--

I'm not good enough,
smart enough.

I'm not talented
enough to do that.

Some people are.

Some people can start at 1:00.

Some people don't
have to start at all.

If you lack talent, you
can't sit back and say,

I'll start in half an hour.

I can't do that.

I got to start now.

And after I get back from
starting, I got to start again.

And then when I get done with
that run or that study session,

if it wasn't good enough,
I got to go back again

because repetition is
what taught me everything.

So you can honestly
outwork anything.

But it's that you, obviously,
are a very talented man.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I have
worked hard at certain things

and built up some
things that I've

been good at most of my life.

DAVID GOGGINS: You're amazing.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Gathering,
organizing, and disseminating

information's
something I've been

doing since I was a little kid.

I used to give lectures at
school on Monday about stuff

I learned over the weekend.

DAVID GOGGINS: See,
check that out.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: But they
took me to a psychiatrist.

We're the same age.

Back then, if you got
sent to a psychiatrist,

people thought you were crazy.

DAVID GOGGINS: I was one.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, exactly.

DAVID GOGGINS: I was one.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Exactly.

So I remember
feeling like a freak.

Also, I didn't have a stutter,
but I had a grunting tic.

It comes back when I'm tired.

And the only thing that
helped that was hitting

my head on something,
shaking my head,

which is why skateboarding
was good because I'd slam,

and I'd feel like, oh.

I feel good.

But that's not healthy.

That's not good.

Or just work.

Work is what gets it out.

It's like an-- it's
like an RPM or high.

[REVVING SOUND]
Anyway, that's me.

But yeah, I think
certain things over time,

I feel like talent or gifts or
whatever you want to call them,

but there are many
things that are

exceedingly difficult for me.

And I have learned
from your example.

I know that you are very
both humble and very clear

that you don't have--
you say, you're

not going to get it
by examining you.

But I think the way
you're sharing today

and the way you've shared
it on other podcasts before,

there are pieces
that really help

people feel into
the process of what

you're talking about today.

We're elaborating on it, I
think, a lot, this notion

of being haunted and the stick.

I mean, of course, of course,
now it makes so much sense why

you don't want to talk about
sleep or rest or recovery

because that's--

sure, that's important.

I've heard you say,
yes, you sleep.

Yes, you eat.

Yes, you hydrate.

Yes, you will stretch
your psoas or whatever.

But it's funny how that
becomes the viral message.

DAVID GOGGINS: That's why
I said fuck that today.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: But
that's not the unique--

that's not the unique
message that you carry.

Like, anyone can
talk about that.

So do I have that right?

That you're acknowledging
sleep is important.

Recovery is important.

DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: But that's
not what you're about.

DAVID GOGGINS: You have
to forego something.

Yes.

Ice baths.

Saunas.

Sleep.

Nutrition.

All this shit's so
fucking important, dude.

I don't have time
for some of it.

To extract what I had to
extract, something had to give.

Like, you talk about you
when you were younger.

You would give these
speeches and stuff.

The same age you
were giving speeches,

I was trying to figure out how
to say the without stuttering.

And I realized, as I got older,
that all these things are

important.

But for me to stop
stuttering, I got

to build fucking confidence.

And speech therapy
didn't help that.

Nothing helped that.

I have to forgo a lot of
shit to be as fucked up

as I am to build
confidence, for me

to stand in a fucking room of
10,000-- of one person, and not

[STUTTERING SOUNDS] and be
like, oh, and put my head down.

Let me look around.

Let me read these
paragraphs first.

And then before I
read the paragraphs,

because they're
calling me next, let

me just leave the room
because I'm going to stutter.

That's a miserable life.

And that's one of many
things I did besides lying,

besides being insecure,
besides being immature,

besides being fat, besides
being one of the only Black kids

in my school.

There's a lot of things I had
to overcome to gain confidence.

And in doing so, a
lot of that had to go.

A lot of it.

So I became the guy that became,
once again, misunderstood.

You only sleep four hours
a day, two hours a day?

Sometimes you
don't sleep at all?

Like, what's this, and
what's this, and what's this?

I know it's all important.

I can't.

Something's got to go.

For me to get confidence,
because confidence

is the building block of
where I'm trying to go,

for me to gain
confidence in myself,

this fucked up kid has got
to do a lot of fucked up shit

to gain confidence.

And along the way,
the stutter went away.

And I gained confidence.

And now, my life is
a little bit more--

there is no balance.

There is no balance.

It's a little bit more what it
should be for a lot of people.

But there'll never be balance
because confidence is something

that you're constantly--

confidence and belief
you're building every day.

And so something's got to give.

And I'm willing to
forego a lot of things

to have that because
I know if you

want to give
somebody kryptonite,

take that shit away from them.

So yeah, I don't
sleep sometimes.

And sometimes I don't
eat the right way.

And sometimes I don't do this
and do that and whatever, man.

But you put me in a room
of 10,000 people any time

of the day, and I'll
walk in there thinking

I'm the baddest
motherfucker in here

because I know what it
took to be on this stage.

And a lot of people
would not do that.

So that's what it takes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
There's a question

I've been wanting to ask
you since we started.

And I thought about
coming in here.

And I've been thinking about
in the weeks ahead of this.

And I'm going to just come
clean and say I don't exactly

know how to ask the question.

DAVID GOGGINS: Just ask it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's
about relationships.

DAVID GOGGINS: Oh, do it, man.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
So I know in myself

that my discipline is much
higher when it's just me.

But that's because I had
certain things early on.

But then I was a
terrible student.

Barely finished high school.

But then when I got
serious, I got serious.

But I did that by staying
away from everybody.

And anyone's who's ever had
a relationship of any kind,

but in particular,
romantic relationships,

knows that, yes, you can derive
tremendous support from those.

Like, you got this, baby.

You can go.

And you're like, yeah.

I got this.

She said I got this.

Feels great to finish something
and share with someone,

share a meal, get the hug.

But there's another
side to all of that

that I'd like to learn
more about from you,

which is there's a
warm body next to you

in bed in the morning.

You don't want to get up.

They also have needs.

You've got your mission
that people sometimes

need things from us.

But also, oftentimes,
the people that

love us most, that truly love
us and that want to support us,

don't understand this thing.

And they're the first people
to tell us, like, listen.

Take a day off.

And then this whole cycle,
at least in my head,

goes off, like, you
just want a vacation.

And then it's almost
like a paranoia.

I'm not saying anything
nice about myself right now.

DAVID GOGGINS: All good, man.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
Former girlfriends

are going to be like, yeah.

Like, they remember that.

And so support of people
close to you is critical.

This could be friends.

Could be romantic partners.

Whatever.

But they're also-- the
knife cuts both ways.

It can be the thing
that can really

undermine this thing that you're
talking about because people

that care about us also
want to see us comfortable.

They want to see us happy.

They want to see us peaceful.

They want to see us wake up
from a great night's sleep.

And they want things too.

So how do you untangle
that whole bit?

DAVID GOGGINS: Well,
it's funny, man.

I'm unbalanced, but
I'm mostly unbalanced

towards the family side, which
people don't get about me.

I'll start being unbalanced.

I get all my stuff in.

But what I do is I make sure
that my family has everything

they need, everything
they need, those who

want to be part of my family.

Some don't.

Some family members don't want
to be part of David Goggins.

I get it.

I got it.

That's life.

Those who are part
of my family, I

give them everything
they need so they

can leave me the fuck alone.

I make sure you're happy as fuck
because I got to go to work.

And I don't mean smokejumping.

I don't mean running.

I mean all of it.

It takes every--

I can't have you
in my fucking shit.

I can't.

So I know for me
to have a family,

I gotta make sure that you
realize I'm going to give you

everything you need.

So when you start
bitching at me,

I'm going to say, look, hang on.

I dedicated my life to give
you everything you need.

I need this time
right here for me

to be the best I can be
because this journey started

without anybody.

And I make sure everybody knows
that who comes in my life.

I've been left-- think about it.

I was left alone at a young
age to figure this shit out.

I figured it out for myself
and have been very successful

for myself.

No one's going to come in
here and fuck with my shit.

That's why I make sure I will
take care of whatever you need.

Whatever you need
from me, you got it.

Money, house, my
love, my support,

I'm going to give you
everything you need.

That said, I do it the
highest level possible.

And I'm saying that with
Jennifer in the next room.

So please come here
and say something

if it's wrong, Jennifer.

I don't give a fuck.

Say what you got to say.

So then when it's time
for me to go to work,

I expect you to
do the same for me

because it takes every bit of
me to do what I have to do.

So I make sure that I'm very
unbalanced from my family

so I can be exactly that
unbalanced for myself.

And that's how I do it.

I let people know
right up front,

I'm not what you want in a man.

I guarantee that.

There's going to be
a lot of late nights,

a lot of early
mornings, a lot of times

where I got to be by myself
thinking about the process that

is next in my mind.

I can't have aggravation.

I can't have this.

Can't have that.

There's a lot of things.

But I let them know up front.

I'm very vocal about that.

Sometimes relationships
work for me.

Sometimes they didn't.

But that's who I am.

One thing I did wrong in my life
was I tried for so many years

to please people.

And I did it at the
expense of myself.

I was leaving a lot in the tank.

And when you do that,
you stop living.

But the person in your
life is happy as fuck

because you're giving
them everything they want.

They have their--
their life is full.

But you feel empty.

And that's not a
relationship to me.

So for me, it's
important that you

know exactly who I am because
this is what life made.

And I'm not trying to change it
because I just figured it out.

So I'm not trying to
compromise David Goggins.

I would never, ever
compromise David Goggins.

That doesn't mean I won't
give you what you need

and what you want
and what you desire.

But I don't need money.

I don't need fame.

I don't need shit.

So I give it all away.

What I do need is to make sure
that that willpower is worked

on every fucking day and every
night for the rest of my life

because that's the
one thing that's

going to keep me feeding you,
keeping you where you need

to be, because once
that willpower is gone,

300-pound David Goggins,
he may not look like it,

but I will walk around with it.

So the things that are
important to you in life,

you must do always.

Or you're nobody.

And that's how I
handle relationships.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Amen to that.

Something I could
personally work on

is that upfront,
clear communication

because it resonates that
feeling of there's something

inside that's not getting worked
out that, when I'm on my own,

it's a lot easier.

But then, of course, wanting
relationships and family,

I think that's a healthy
part of being human too.

And obviously,
you've worked it out.

So I appreciate
you sharing that.

I don't think I've
ever heard you

talk about it that way before.

DAVID GOGGINS: People are
scared of that conversation

with their wife, husband,
girlfriend, boyfriend.

But why are you scared of it?

Why are you scared to tell
a motherfucker, your wife,

your husband, who you are, who
you are, exactly who you are?

And that was the problem
I had-- that's a problem

that a lot of us have in life.

No one knows who you really are.

No one knew who I really was.

I went to a school where there
were a lot of Black kids.

A lot of Black kids didn't
want to be in special ops.

I never talked about
special ops to Black kids.

Why?

I was wondering what--

I'm not going to fit in.

That's not what they do.

A lot of Black kids don't
do that kind of shit.

So whatever I wanted
to do, no one really

knew the real me growing up
because I never wanted anybody

to know the real me.

I was always afraid
of what you might say

or how you're going
to feel or whatever.

You got feelings.

You have a life that
you have to live.

So it's important that
whatever's on your mind,

you let that person know.

Therefore, you're
giving them the option

to be with you or not.

This is who I am.

If you don't like
it, that's good, man.

I got it.

But this is David Goggins.

So that honest conversation
is very important, man,

so everybody knows
where they stand.

That person may not be for you.

And that's all good.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
This world could

use a lot more of that upfront,
completely honest conversation.

I feel like so much of
the world's problems

are because everyone's
dancing around these issues.

DAVID GOGGINS: It takes a lot.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
Recently in the news,

seeing people losing
their job because they

won't say something publicly.

You can tell they
kind of what it.

It's like, people just,
I think, deep down really

crave the direct message.

Like, what are you about?

What are you not about?

But I think now, everyone's
afraid of getting canceled.

It's a big deal, getting
canceled, that people think,

oh, I can't work
if I am who I am.

Or if I'm not pretending
to be somebody else,

then silence is
considered agreement.

There's all sorts of
complicated stuff.

And I do feel for the
generation coming up

because we didn't have
social media and all of that.

Again, just walled
off from that.

There's a real benefit from
just not paying attention.

DAVID GOGGINS:
People love to lie.

People love to lie.

You know, I thought
I was only a person--

when I was growing
up, I thought I

was the only person that lied
because I lived in a bubble.

And people love to lie
about who they're not.

They love to lie about
who they're not, dude.

And that's, for me, the
reason why I'm so vulnerable,

and I'm so real and honest.

Find somebody to
come out and tell me

I'm lying about my fucking life.

And for me to come
where I came from

and have the resume
I have now, you

know the confidence you get?

How I don't care who--
you're going to-- you're

going to judge me?

You're going to judge me?

What have you done in your life?

So me, being so honest and
so upfront and so truthful,

that came with me finally
figuring out who I was,

but also conquering David
Goggins, the demons of David

Goggins.

Therefore, now, you're
just an open book.

You look at somebody, look
them right in the eye.

Tell me exactly who
the fuck you are.

You walk away.

I'm good, bro, because I know
exactly what this journey took

to get here.

And that gives you a fire
and a passion that people

can call you nigger,
they can call you--

if you're a lesbian or
gay or bise-- call me

whatever the fuck you want.

If you put yourself in
the fire and you come out

every fucking day like this,
brush it off, not scared

to go back in there
again, come on, man.

Your truth is real.

You come out every
day, man, with a way

of talking to people that people
don't have because there's

no truth behind them.

And the truth is
the starting line.

When you sit down the ugly
mirror and say, I'm this,

I'm this, I'm this and this,
you finally started your life.

Maybe 40 years old.

Maybe 40 years old,
five, six kids, wife.

But the second you look in that
mirror and you say, I'm this,

I'm this, I'm this, I'm this,
I'm this, well, basically,

I'm not this, I'm not this,
I'm not this, I can't do this,

I can't do this, I'm
all these insecurities,

your life finally started.

And once you start that
life, man, the truth

comes out big time because
you no longer care.

So that's the problem.

Most people just don't want
to have that conversation

to the point where they can go
on stage and a million people

and say, I'm all of this.

And have a good day.

See you.

It's empowering.

It's very empowering.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I feel like the
way we're educated in school,

but also outside of school, is
we're trained, as human being,

as these young brains,
to try and figure out

how to get positive
feedback from other people.

It's like we're little dogs.

You have a bulldog.

DAVID GOGGINS: That's right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
I had a bulldog.

Saw the picture of your bulldog.

She's great.

DAVID GOGGINS: Charlie dog.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: They're
an amazing species.

DAVID GOGGINS: They are.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I think
of them economy of effort

or amazing breed, excuse me.

They're an amazing breed.

Economy of effort.

They don't do anything
unless it's necessary.

It's the exact opposite of
everything we're talking about.

It's kind of interesting.

And they're kind of hedonists.

Now, it is true that
they'll die to protect you.

DAVID GOGGINS: Oh, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And
it's an instinct.

I saw that with Costello.

I'm sure that--

DAVID GOGGINS: I
saw it with Charlie.

Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
It's an instinct.

But if they're not
in that position,

if there's no need
to exert effort--

DAVID GOGGINS: They're resting.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.

So your bulldog's
resting for you.

DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.

Got it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Exactly.

So you don't need
to rest because--

DAVID GOGGINS: Active
recovery Charlie.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Perfect.

DAVID GOGGINS: That's it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Perfect.

That's going to be your
answer from now on.

People go, does he sleep?

Does he rest?

Go, no.

He somehow worked it out so
his bulldog does it for him.

DAVID GOGGINS: Right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
But we're sort of

indoctrinated into
this way of being

from a time that we're
young, where, of course,

praise feels good.

Someone tells you, hey, I like
that shirt, or good job today,

or nicely done.

Or for me, because growing up
in a big pack of friends growing

up, and I was never the greatest
athlete, wasn't terrible,

wasn't great, et cetera, like,
a fist bump, or, like, feeling

crewed up.

And you're just like, yeah.

But you've talked about
this before in reference

to the SEAL Teams.

We both know a lot of
people in that community.

And the Teams component is a big
part of it for a lot of people.

And it's a wonderful thing.

But there's a danger
to that dopamine hit,

for lack of a better
way to put it,

from we can only derive when
it's coming from the outside.

You're talking about being
able to either say, good job,

but also, just look to one's
own personal history and say,

I've done hard things.

And I can do it again and again
because I do it again and again

and again.

You're talking about parenting
yourself, inspiring yourself,

scaring yourself, all
of that from the inside.

So very different
than the way we're

raised, which is to figure
out how to get the biscuit.

DAVID GOGGINS: It's funny, man.

People want to know how
I'm always motivated.

It's the unseen work, which you
just said is a true statement.

Those are false dopamine
hits that people

are giving you, man.

There's no belief in that.

These are teamwork
dopamine-- like, I'm out

running at 2 o'clock
in the morning, 1

o'clock in the morning in the
gym, long sessions by myself.

That's real.

I'm able to extract dopamine,
the good dopamine whenever

I want.

Man, I've trained
99% of my life alone.

No one patted me on the back.

I did all of the work alone.

And while I'm still hard on
myself, I know what I did.

So whenever times
get bad for me,

people are all this, who's going
to carry the boats and lo--

that's real.

I hate that people
know me for that guy

because that guy is
not every fucking day.

When they see me,
they want that energy.

That's not me every day.

I can extract it
immediately when I need to

because when you train alone--

and I lived alone for so
many years in this misery.

And you're able to
get out by yourself.

I can take myself to such
a level of real passion

and purpose.

And the feeling I
get is something

I can't even explain by mys--

I don't need anyone.

That's why people come
to me to motivate them.

No one can motivate me.

I have a resume full
of fucking motivation

that whenever I'm down, I'm
like, oh hang on, motherfucker.

Oh, you know the truth.

You know the truth.

You know the darkness
of the fucking dungeons

and the fucking demons that fly.

And then from there,
it's like, OK.

You were there.

You know this.

There was no one
there to pick up

the rucksack, to pick
up the boat, to pick up

the log, to go in there.

It was you.

It was you.

There was no pat on the fucking
back at 300, at 275, at 250,

at 220.

No.

That was you.

So those things
that come out of me,

that extract from me
in the darkness, people

are looking for that
pat on the back.

Where is it?

Oh, I don't need it
because what I've done

is in the fucking unseen work.

I built Frankenstein.

So whenever shit gets
nasty, David Goggins

goes, you had nobody
anyway, motherfucker.

So see how I'm talking
to myself right now?

That's me.

That's shit fires
me the fuck up.

That shit makes me fucking nuts.

You had nobody
anyway, motherfucker.

Look around you.

There was no fucking team.

It was you.

There was no weight loss program
or mom and dad waking you up,

saying you can do it, you can be
better, trying to build belief.

You built belief
when you had nothing.

Rock bottom.

You did that.

So as times get hard for
me, the truth comes out.

And my truth is
powerful as fuck.

It's real.

It's tangible.

I feel it.

It comes out of my brain
as I speak about it.

I'm reliving every single dark
moment of my life to be here.

So that is what
people don't get.

That is what motivates David
Goggins is the unseen work.

But everybody needs
that pat on the back.

They need that training partner.

They need that
accountability coach.

I don't need that shit.

And neither do they.

But it's what we've
trained ourselves

to believe that we need.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's
almost like there's

this pill on the shelf.

I'm speaking in analogy.

And we take it, and
we get jazzed up.

And we're like, yeah.

But there's this other
medicine cabinet behind there.

And it's in us.

You're saying the real
medicine cabinet is inside.

DAVID GOGGINS: Oh, yes.

When you continue to overcome--

and I had so many
obstacles to overcome.

So it's actually
a benefit to me.

But the benefit, it's not
like a benefit like that.

You have to have the
courage and the patience

to overcome and overcome.

Before you know it, man, you
have a whole medicine cabinet.

But there's no medicine
in the motherfucker.

There's no pre-workout.

I don't take none of that shit.

All I got to do
is flip my brain.

Put my finger in there and
say, OK, that's a good one.

It's all I got to do, man.

I got the Rolodex.

I'm just like, go fuck
yourself, Goggins.

And oh, but you won.

Let's do that one today.

There's nothing I need.

And this is the
thing that people

don't get about David Goggins.

I can't teach it in
a 1-minute video.

We all have this ability to
have our own medicine cabinet.

But unless you go in there
and put the medicine in there,

it's always going to
be fucking empty, man.

You're always going to
need the pre-workout.

You're always
going to need the--

I don't drink coffee.

I don't do ca--

I don't do none of that.

I don't need it.

I can run for 70 hours, and
I have before, no caffeine.

I got all this wonderful shit
that I overcame on my own,

by myself, in the darkness,
that, man, when it's cold,

I'm hot.

When it's hot--

I can feed myself all the time.

That's why when people
say, man, why aren't you

missing anything, I can't
explain it to you, man.

Can't explain it to you.

You'll never understand.

That's why I don't do
all these podcasts, dude.

I love you, man.

That's why you-- my first
book, you did a blurb for me.

That's why I'm here.

I love what you're
doing for people, man.

But I can't explain this.

I can't.

I can't explain this because
people don't want to do this.

They don't want to do this, man.

But I don't know, man.

I get jazzed up even
talking about it,

man, because so many people
think my life is just so, oh

god, his life is horrible.

Don't follow him.

He's crazy.

Really?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: But there
are a good number of people,

I would say, and that's an
under-- that actually do.

I think what I'm hearing today,
and it's really sinking in, is

that a great many people
either partially or completely

misunderstand you.

DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'll put myself
in the partially category.

DAVID GOGGINS: Big time.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
Because I thought

it was about just forward
center of mass, carrot, carrot,

carrot, carrot.

But it's the stick.

DAVID GOGGINS: It's the stick.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And
it's being haunted.

And you know, I do have examples
from my own life, which is not

what today is about,
about being really afraid

and then turning things around.

My biggest fear is
getting comfortable.

I do not have as much of
a stick-oriented approach.

But today's conversation's
changing the way I think.

I'm not going to
step away from this

and think, OK, there are
25 neural circuits that

can explain 10 of the things
that David's talking about.

And what I'm thinking
about is the fact

that everybody has a brain.

They have a mind.

Forget the brain.

The brain's just the
physical structure.

But what that manifests, what
that creates is the mind.

And everybody has that.

So I do believe that
everyone has the capacity

to do what you're talking
about at some level.

I also will be the
first to confess

that I think you
are highly unusual.

Let's just say maybe even n
of 1, as we say in science.

Sample size of one.

Somebody who has created
this process for themselves

and keeps them in
this-- themselves

in this forward center
of mass with the stick

battering the back of
their head all the time.

Highly unusual.

But this internal
medicine cabinet

that you're talking
about building up,

true confidence, not needing
anything from the outside,

I like to think that
people want that.

They want to be known.

They're afraid.

But that they want to be
known for who they really are

and that you're describing
the path to do this.

And I will say I'm immensely
grateful that you're

talking to us this
way today about things

that you've talked about before.

But we're hitting it a little
differently, I like to think.

DAVID GOGGINS: Very differently.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because
what you're talking about

is a process.

It's verbs.

It's all verbs.

DAVID GOGGINS: All action.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And
it's not about success.

It's more, actually,
about keeping

that friction dialed to 10.

And no energy drink,
no supplement.

People often misunderstand me.

They think-- like, I'm big
on people getting sunlight

in the morning so they
set their circadian rhythm

and get better sleep and
so they can-- et cetera.

But then people always
think-- they go straight

to the supplements.

What should I take?

And then, of
course, people think

I'm all about supplements.

And supplements are
one piece for me.

But it's like tiny fraction
compared to the doing,

the do's and don'ts.

DAVID GOGGINS:
That's why I didn't

want to talk about that today.

That's why I'm glad
we're talking about this.

This is it.

This is it.

Like, the brain is the most
powerful weapon in the world.

And it's crazy how a kid
that wasn't real smart,

I was forced to
go only internal.

External had to go away.

The external world
had to go away.

In living so deep inside
myself, it was me in this brain

and figuring out how
this thing works.

And so many people are doing
exactly that, the supplements,

the this, the that.

And I agree, it helps.

But once you figure
out your brain,

you become unstoppable
to almost anything.

Yeah, you can't beat death.

You can't whatever, whatever.

Your brain is amazing.

Once you feed it the right
conversation, the right mental

nutrients, the right
mental supplements,

the right internal
dialogue at the right time

with the right hit, with the
right proof of what you've

done in the past, and
you send that right

to the right circuit, dude,
you're a fucking beast.

A beast.

But once again, you just
can't read about it.

You can't sit back
and be a theorist.

You have to be a
fucking practitioner.

And in that practice is where
that becomes proof-positive

of what I'm saying.

It's like, god, David
Goggins is blowing my mind.

What is this?

He's not crazy.

And so many people,
a lot of people,

have listened to
me the right way.

And they come back, and they're
like, I'm totally on board.

It happened.

It happened.

I'm like, it'll keep going,
man, if you keep doing it.

But that is it, man.

There's no sun.

There's no glory.

There's no carrot.

There's no victory.

But there is all of it in one.

I just can't explain it
real well to people, man.

But what you get the
other end is something

that you're always found.

You're never lost anymore.

Doesn't mean the
journey is easy.

Doesn't get any easier.

But you're always found.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love that.

I just want to hover
on that for a sec

the same way we hovered
on haunted and the stick.

I think people feel lost.

I've certainly felt lost at
times in my life, many times.

And yeah, there's that thing.

I don't think there's a
neuroscience or a psychology

term for it.

Someone will put it in the
comments and say, oh yeah,

that's what so-and-so said.

But like you said, we're not
trying to be theoretical here.

We're trying to be practical.

The business of finding
yourself and knowing, oh.

But it's sort of like I'm
safe because I'm in danger,

and I've been in danger
before, and I got myself out.

It always seems to
come back to verbs.

Again, I don't have
a language for this.

For once, I'm lost for words.

There's like-- it's about
a process, the algorithm.

And the reason-- here, I'm just
kind of trying to make sure

I'm understanding
things correctly.

One of the reasons why
it must be uncomfortable

for you to be who
you are publicly

is because people want to focus
on the running or the swearing.

And by the way, the
swearing is welcome.

I'll tell you, I came
up through laboratories

where all three people I
worked for swore a lot.

But there was one rule.

I couldn't swear at people.

So my graduate advisor,
brilliant woman,

unfortunately, she died
early, they all died early--

I'm the common denominator.

I had that internalized
for a long time.

Anyway, she said, but if you
swear at people, you're out.

But you can swear
as much as you want.

So that's the rule I have.

It's like, you can swear
as much as you want.

Just don't swear at people.

And if you swear at people,
better be ready to fight.

Definitely not
going to fight you.

So you can swear at
me, get away with it.

But the fact of the
matter is that it must

be frustrating that people--

because I know
people go, oh, it's

all about supplements
and ice baths.

Listen, I like supplements.

I love supplements
and ice baths.

But that's not the full picture.

It's just a gravitational pull.

It's the swearing.

It's the running.

It's his feet that
are all messed up.

It's the fact that
he got a Triton.

He's a SEAL guy.

Talk about that too.

And there's a gravitational
pull for people.

And they're missing-- that's
the tip of the iceberg,

is what I'm realizing.

I'm realizing that
today thanks to the way

you're phrasing things
because the bigger vessel

is all in here.

And as you said, how do
you put that in a book?

DAVID GOGGINS: It's impossible.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because
it's highly individual.

You do it your way.

And you're saying,
everyone needs

to go figure out how to
do it their way for them.

DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.

And the thing about
being misunderstood,

it's very frustrating, more
than I can even imagine.

I can't even express
how frustrating

it is when the cussing
and everything comes

from a place of real.

I can't explain what
I do without it.

The passion comes out of me.

It's almost like speaking in
tongues because when you put

that much work-- and
people go, oh yeah,

there's been this basketball
player, this football player,

this--

dude.

No.

No.

Everything, everything is work.

Everything.

And people don't believe it.

So when I speak, the
motherfucker and the fuck

and the shit, that is
what it took for me,

what it takes for me, the anger,
the passion, the jaw-dropping--

just it takes that
because I'm not that.

This is how I look at it, man.

What built this guy?

Let's imagine being
in the coldest

water you can possibly take.

I always go back to
Hell Week with this.

I hated that water.

Hated it.

You're sitting there locked
arms, and you're in the water

all the time.

And they're bringing you
in and out of the water,

in and out of the water.

When you have this
dialogue in your head,

and these people are judging me
off a freaking 1-minute video,

and you're constantly
your whole life,

when you figured it out
at 24, that I got to--

I just got to, just
fucking got to,

and this is just going to suck.

Every day it's going to suck.

And live like that to be better.

And I put it this way.

I'm in the water.

The water is going over my
head, the Pacific Ocean.

It's freezing.

February.

Cold as shit.

Been through three Hell Weeks.

For you to constantly
win, win, win,

when this voice over
here, the real you,

is saying get the fuck out
of here, go, you're nobody.

You've always been nobody.

And it's true.

People don't hear that.

That's a true voice.

That's a real reality of
David Goggins at 24 years old.

It's not a false reality.

And then you had to create
another voice over here that

is saying, you're better
than that other voice.

And you're in the
freezing cold water

that both voices don't
want to fucking be in.

But you win.

Then goes from the
water to the studying

to the running to
the losing weight

to how you eat to how
you function as a man.

Every day of your life,
you're winning these battles.

And then I have normal people
who only have one voice.

Never created the second voice.

The winning voice
is the second voice.

They have one voice.

And that's just,
I'm a piece of shit.

And that's all they hear.

And then they judge
people like me

who are out here
trying to be better.

It's something that
I can never really--

it's a frustrating
thing for me because I

know the majority of people.

I know what goes on in the
brain because I studied the mind

more than almost-- more than
you because I'm a practitioner.

So for you to be a piece of
shit and come out of that,

you don't just come out of it.

You spend decades studying
your mind and the human mind

on how it functions in good
environments, bad environments,

stressful environments,
patient environments.

You study it all because
you had to put all this

together to create the
mind to become successful.

So I had to-- it wasn't like
God blessed me with this brain.

I had to create a mind.

And so in doing
so, I figured out

every piece of shit
human being in the world

because that's what I was
going off of for myself.

So I know why you
go on Instagram.

I know why you-- because
you just have the time.

You have the time
because you don't

want to put that time
into bettering oneself.

So I know why I'm misunderstood.

I'm misunderstood by people
who have plenty of time

on their hands to misunderstand
me because they are exactly

where I once was, which is a
low-life, lazy piece of shit.

And it's the harsh reality
of people who troll you,

who go after you.

They have nothing better
to do with their lives.

It's not some after
school special.

It's the truth.

But I once was that way.

I know where it all comes from.

That's why it's
frustrating to me

now because I'm not so
frustrated at the fact

that I'm being trolled.

I'm frustrated by
the fact that you

don't have the
courage, the courage

to try to be somebody
better than what you're not.

And that's the frustrating part.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
It's interesting

because earlier, we were
talking about relationships.

And you said, in
a very candid way,

and I really appreciate
you sharing that,

that you make sure
that the people close

to you, your family,
has everything they need

and that they also
understand that you're

going to take what you need to
continue to build you period.

DAVID GOGGINS: Period.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
In some ways, it

seems you've also included the
general public in that family.

You're saying, listen, I'm
going to give you what you need.

I'm going to give you as
much of myself as I can,

except I'm going to
stop right at the line

that if I were to
cross it is going

to prevent me from
continuing to build myself.

And by the way,
this relationship

only exists because I
don't cross that line.

And I think as much as there
are detractors out there

or people that try--

I mean, whatever they're doing
is pretty feeble, in my mind.

I mean, it's like cap
gun fire, it that.

DAVID GOGGINS: Very feeble.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So many of us,
men and women, old and young,

hear something and feel
something in your message.

Like, yeah, it
seems kind of crazy.

Gosh.

Doesn't he ever just relax?

What about his sleep?

Look at his feet.

He's going to-- he's
going to injure himself.

Listen, I'll be very direct.

I got friends who were in the
Teams who just go, what's he

going to do when he can't run?

And I know the answer
is keep running.

DAVID GOGGINS: That's right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: But
it's more comfortable

for people, even
high achievers--

DAVID GOGGINS: Especially
high achievers.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: --to
believe that if you

took one thing away, that
it would all go away.

It's absolutely clear that's
not the case with you.

I'm 100% convinced.

I just know that because
we're talking about this.

DAVID GOGGINS: Do you
know how many times

I haven't been able to run?

Two heart surgeries.

Multiple knee surgeries.

And after every knee
surgery, they said,

you're not going to run again.

And I'm fine with that.

There's no running up here, bro.

None.

This was what it was all about.

That's what they lost.

What if you can't run?

Give a fuck.

It was never about running.

Why do you think I run?

It's the worst thing.

I hate doing it
more than anything.

Hence the willpower.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.

Your anterior
mid-cingulate cortex

DAVID GOGGINS:
Hence the willpower.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
--would start to regress

if you loved running.

DAVID GOGGINS: Think about it.

Every day, I wake up.

I don't just run
a mile, two miles.

It's the one thing I
hate the most to do.

And I do it like I love it.

250, 260, 300-mile
runs at one time.

No sleep.

And every step, when I get
to the-- think about this.

I get to the fucking start
line cussing at Jennifer.

Why the fuck am I here?

I hate this shit.

After 70-some hours of
running, every fucking

question I ever had is answered.

Every question I
had is answered.

I capped success.

People go, what do you
mean, you capped success?

For me to be who I am--

so when I go smokejump, I smoke
jump three to four months out

of the year, sometimes five.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Could
you, just for those

that aren't educated
about-- just

give us a brief description
of what smokejumping entails.

DAVID GOGGINS: So basically,
you jump into fires.

Not into them, but you jump by
fires that people can't get to.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So out
of planes and helicopters.

DAVID GOGGINS:
Right, out of planes.

I parachute.

It's all parachuting.

So you parachute
out of airplanes.

And then you fight the fire, you
and sometimes four other guys

or maybe eight other
guys, guys and gals.

And you're putting
this fire out.

So I lose millions of dollars
every summer to do this.

It blows people's minds.

Why the hell are you doing this?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And
you're breathing soot.

DAVID GOGGINS: I'm
breathing soot.

Knees are jacked up.

Hitting the ground.

Hurting.

Whatever.

Talking to normal people,
they'll never get it,

so I don't even
explain it to them.

But this is why-- this is
why I call it capped success.

I'm talking financial success.

For me to continue having that
willpower, the second I just

become a speaking
monkey and travel around

and speaking gigs 12
months out of the year,

put camps on, do this, put on
lectures, get supplement lines

and do this and write
more books and shit,

I've ruined the exact thing
I worked on my entire life.

And while I didn't
know it until the day,

but something
always told me, this

is a very, very, very
perishable skill, this willpower

that you have, because I do have
a willpower that I have never

seen in anybody in my life.

It is a haunting force
that just keeps me going.

And I know that
that is my strength.

If you have that-- so that's
worth every dime I've ever

made in my life is the fact
I can look a man in the eye

finally and have a
real conversation

without going like
this because I'm lying,

or I'm a piece of shit.

Or I know-- you
know how a person--

and so many people do this shit.

They're talking to you
on who they want to be.

They're lying to you.

And they walk away--

I've done it so many times.

You walk away like, god, man.

If I could just
tell them the truth.

Why the hell can't I
just tell him the truth?

Know how good it
feels for me now

to look at you in
your eye and every man

I see because women
won't get this.

Women will not get this.

Man to man, that
man shit, when you

look another man
in the eye, and you

know that everything you're
fucking saying is real,

and it comes from a real
working place, something

that you earned, it's the
best feeling in the world.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You can
say that actually happened.

Like, I know with certainty what
I'm saying actually happened.

DAVID GOGGINS:
Actually happened.

Who I am and who
I say I am, I am.

No more lies.

No more skirting the truth.

No more bullshit.

And that is worth every dime
I've ever made in my life.

And I swear to God on that.

Every dime I've ever made in
my life, building who I built,

so I capped success
because I know

that if I ever go 12
months out of the year

and don't put several--
every day, I'm going at it.

But several months
out of the year,

I go right back to
ground zero, which means

I'm just fucking David Goggins.

No Goggins.

No carry boats,
fucking logs bullshit.

It's just pick up that
fucking Pulaski and dig.

Hey, get that fucking pump.

Walk down a mile.

Put it in the fucking water.

Mosquitoes beating--
you're just David Goggins.

You're nobody because
that's where my growth is.

That's where my
willpower comes from.

And that's where it stays.

That's why when I talk to
you now-- and can't nobody

talk like this, dude.

People don't talk with
this kind of passion

because it ain't there.

It ain't there.

They're regurgitating some
shit from 30 fucking years ago.

I'm regurgitating
shit from an hour ago.

Hour ago.

Come on, man.

It's just be real.

And I can't be on
these podcasts.

I can't talk to anybody
without being real.

I'll go away.

I'll just go away
because I can't give you

what I want to give you.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You
said perishable skill.

I think that's
another set of words

I want to highlight because
skill implies behavior.

And when we were just
talking a second ago

about the deep, true bedrock
sense of confidence that

comes from looking
someone in the eye

and telling somebody
something that you absolutely

know it's true
because it happened,

you're talking about actions.

Not talking about perceptions.

You're not talking about
what you believe happened.

You know it happened.

And there's something really
concrete about actions.

I mean, that's what's
so interesting is

we're talking about the mind.

But actions are the
manifestation of the mind.

And the stuff that just stays
in here, people die with that.

It doesn't go anywhere.

Long ago, somebody said--

I forget what the context was.

It was a neuroscientist.

He said, most emotions,
they're just emotions.

They're just in there.

You don't have to do
anything with them.

And I think certain emotions
you want to do something with.

But I think people forget this.

They feel miserable,
like they're

going to dissolve into a
puddle of their own tears.

No one ever died
from an emotion.

But they feel-- they overwhelm
us as if it's a tidal wave.

It's going to pull us
under and drown us.

It's so interesting to me
because I think what people--

listen, you have a
gravitational pull.

People can feel the energy.

I think, yes, you're
either completely badly

or partially understood.

There's only one
guy on the planet

that truly understands you.

I think there's one
woman, Jennifer,

who probably understands you
as much as anyone's going to.

And then the rest of us
are kind of grasping,

trying to figure it out.

But you're saying, go inward.

So first, go inward.

And then it's actions.

Inward and actions.

Now, the inward
piece is something

I'd like to just spend a little
bit of time on because there

are a couple of characters
from history, people that

were in concentration camps.

Nelson Mandela.

I mean, I'm not sure he
had Instagram in there.

I'm pretty sure he didn't.

And I don't think there
was anyone coaching him on,

hey, you're going
to get out someday.

And actually, you're going
to lead an entire country.

I'm pretty sure that's
not how it worked.

He had to find it here.

He had to find it
between his ears.

And there are other examples.

But that's an important one.

So the process of going
inward, does it, for you--

and here, I will
ask for suggestions

because I think people want--

there are those of us who
want to build this skill.

Wall yourself off.

Phone off for big portions
of the day, perhaps.

Texting off.

The requests, the
this, the that.

Anyone that knows you
knows that-- we've

communicated a few
texts, but most of it

comes through a filter.

She's great.

She knows you.

And she knows how to
protect your time.

DAVID GOGGINS: And that
hurts people's feelings.

People get mad about that.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
Hey, God bless--

God bless you, Jennifer.

Cutting oneself off,
when you're in there,

you say it's just you.

And the voices that come
up are not pleasant.

And then at some point,
it converts to action.

OK.

What is the process
of picking the action?

That's the piece that
I feel like there's,

like, a bridge to build here,
if you can, if you would.

DAVID GOGGINS: So the action
being, like, what's next?

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
Yeah, so when you

go to sleep at night,
when that happens,

you know what you're
going to do the next day?

It's pre-planned?

DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: OK.

DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.

It's always the same thing.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You're
not building it on the fly.

DAVID GOGGINS: No.

Nothing's on the fly.

So how it works
internally for me is I'll

put it exactly how it is.

I'm an artist.

And every day, I'm
painting Mona Lisa.

Every day.

And but it's a different one.

It's not the same painting.

So every day I wake up, even
though I'll do the same thing,

it takes a different
way to get there.

So every day, in my mind,
I'm going through my mind.

I'm just like-- and a good
painter will not just paint.

He needs to create.

And you can't create with
phones and everything

going around you.

So you got to
block yourself off.

You only do two
podcasts in a year.

You block yourself off.

And you're painting
this thing inside.

And you're going through
all these different colors

of paint and everything else.

And you can only figure
out the right painting

if you spend the correct
amount of time in your brain.

So every single
day, I'm literally

going through my mind,
and I'm painting.

I'm creating this masterpiece.

And the masterpiece
is always myself.

And but to do that, you
cannot have any distractions

because if you're talking to an
artist and he's trying to think

about the next
painting, he can't.

It's impossible to
listen to you and listen

to what your mind and body
are telling you we must do.

Because people
don't do enough of.

They don't do any of it.

They don't have passion.

They lack passion,
drive, determination

because you haven't
spent time with yourself.

Your mind will tell
you what is next.

But you haven't
spent the time to go,

all right, let me
just figure this out.

You're looking for let me Google
this, and let me Google that,

and let me-- you're not
going to find it there

because there's billions
of people in this world.

And they're all supposed
to be individuals.

But we have a pack mentality.

That's why you're
so fucking lost.

Why am I so unique?

I'm being exactly what the
fuck I was supposed to be.

I ain't follow shit.

And when I did follow shit,
I was like everybody else.

The second I said, OK, man, hang
on, dude, you don't like this,

you don't like this, you
don't like this, who are you,

David Goggins?

Who are you supposed to be?

Miraculously, all
these things just--

I couldn't even-- the list of
shit I had to do, just, wham.

It's like, fuck.

OK.

Wow.

Once you sit down with
yourself and say, OK, I

don't want to be like
Michael Jordan or Jim Brown--

they're both born
on my birthday.

So I looked at their birthday.

I said, oh, maybe I
can be one of the--

I can't.

I'm going to be David
fucking Goggins.

And that looks like this.

It just came.

Everything flooded.

So every single day
of my life, there's

a different thing that
comes up that I have to do.

But no one knows what to do
because everybody else is

following steps.

Like the Republican
and Democratic parties.

I'm not political--

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Neither am I.

DAVID GOGGINS: --at
all for this reason.

Republicans are going
to vote Republican.

Democrats are going
to vote Democrat.

You're not even a human
fucking being, bro.

No way all you fuckers agree
with all the same fucking shit.

And I know I don't.

So once you figure out
yourself and who you are,

all the answers come.

So every night, a different
painting is being painted.

And it's a beautiful
painting for myself.

I'm like, OK.

That's it.

It may look the same
to most motherfuckers.

But the end result is
very fucking different.

That's why my-- if you look
at what I've done in 49 years,

it's more than most people
will ever do in their life

because they were
a race car driver.

And that's what they did.

They drove a fucking car.

It's great.

I was all kind of shit
because that's exactly what

the painting was saying to do.

It's what the mind
was saying to do.

Wasn't saying just drive a car,
so then that race car driver

didn't know what the fuck to do.

He retires from being a race
car driver, and they're lost.

People go, how are you still--

I don't get it.

Dude, you're never
going to fill your list.

But you never found your
list because it never

was presented in front of
you because your head was

cluttered with shit because
you never just stopped

for lots of minutes, lots
of years, and just said,

all right, it's me and you.

Let it go.

And it just-- bam.

It's right there.

It's right there.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm
not a psychologist,

as I mentioned before.

But I'm going to venture
a hypothesis here.

I think that you've mastered the
process of internal dialogue.

But when I say dialogue, I
think most people think, oh,

the inner voice, the chatter.

But that's just one
half of a dialogue.

A dialogue is a two-way street.

So I completely agree because
I know from experience

that when we go inward,
oftentimes, we hear things,

if we're really honest with
ourselves, it's like, oh no,

I don't want to
think about that.

No.

And then we start
looking outward.

Or we start trying to shift
our attention or distract.

And there are a
million reasons that

are handed to us, excuses, and
seemingly good justifications

to be able to do that.

But dialogue is
a two-way street.

And it hit me
while you were just

saying what you
were saying, I was

paying very close attention.

And I realized David Goggins
is talking about the voice that

comes up, including the
terrible stuff that no one wants

to hear about themselves
from themselves.

But then he's also got
the dialogue down where

he knows the counter voice.

He goes, yeah, you're right.

And so I'm going to do this.

Or maybe no, remember this.

You're in a dialogue, a
two-way dialogue in there, not

a one-way chatter dialogue.

There are books written
by famous psychologists

about chatter, trying to
shift your internal narrative.

You're like, bring
the internal--

the internal narrative, that's
what going inward is about.

But it's not one voice.

Again, there's a hypothesis.

And I'm not claiming
to be all-knowing.

Lord knows I'm not all-knowing.

But you've mastered
the dialogue.

And if there are three voices,
strong, medium, and weak,

in there, you're like,
let's all come to the table.

So you've got a symphony
of voices in there

that are all you, that
you know to be you.

And you know how to have
those convers-- you're not

afraid to be in
those conversations.

And then you know what the
outcome of that committee

decision is, and you put
it into real-world action.

And the world only
sees the action.

DAVID GOGGINS: That's it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
And only you can

know your internal dialogue.

And only I can know
my internal dialogue.

And the only way to,
quote unquote, "know it"

is to spend a hell
a lot of time there.

DAVID GOGGINS: That's right.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: OK.

DAVID GOGGINS: A lifetime.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Got it.

DAVID GOGGINS: A lifetime.

Like, think about it.

For me to be sitting
here in front of you,

you're not going to
call 300-pound Ecolab

guy to come sit here.

You might.

I don't know.

Maybe.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Probably not.

DAVID GOGGINS: Probably not.

Think about this.

What we teach people is
kind, kindness to yourself.

Do you think if I
taught myself kindness--

and I agree with it.

God, so many people-- so many
people take me out of context,

it's ridiculous.

Take it however the fuck
you want to take it.

When I was 300
pounds, where do you

think that conversation
would that got me

if I spoke kindness to myself?

I'll tell you where it gets me.

Right back to 7-Eleven with
another box of mini chocolate

donuts and a
chocolate milkshake.

That's the one voice.

That's the one voice
that most of us have

that you're talking about.

If you don't have a conversation
in there, the other voice

that you create that says,
OK, how does this look?

Looks very ugly.

That kind conversation for
me went away a long time ago,

which is why the dialogue
is now what you see.

A lot of action.

Because most people have
inaction because there's

one person talking.

And that one person
is always leading you

down the same
path, the path that

makes you feel very comfortable
and happy with yourself.

The second you create the
other voice, there's conflict.

Just battles.

Just wars.

Just defeat.

One thing I learned, and
I taught myself this,

and people go, I don't
understand what you're saying,

I'm going to try to
break it down real quick.

I didn't teach
myself victory first.

I taught myself failure.

I taught myself how to fail.

And people like,
that's so depressing.

Is it?

When you're 300 pounds and
you can't read and write

and you're fucked up,
you know how many times

you're going to fucking
fail on that process?

So if you don't know how to
fail, there is no victory.

I never talked about
winning because I

knew the path to
winning was going

to be years of failing first.

So I taught myself
how to fail properly.

No one teaches you
how to fucking fail.

But if you're going out
for insurmountable fucking

odds that make absolutely
no fucking sense,

a Black kid that can't
swim, 300 pounds--

going to be a Navy SEAL.

OK.

You better teach yourself
how to fail first

because if you sit in
failure for too long,

you will never come out of it.

So the first part
of my success was

learning how to fail properly.

And then eventually, I started
getting a few victories.

But that's what
people don't get.

When you have buried yourself
in such a deep fucking hole,

you better first talk
about the failures

you're going to have first.

And that's when that
other voice comes up.

It tells you, we've
got to do something.

But it also tells
you, boy, I'm not

going to lie to you, Goggins.

You're in for a
fucking climb, bro.

You're going to get
your ass handed to you,

made fun of, the outside
noise, the inside noise.

Both voices are going
to be fucking telling

you to go fuck yourself.

You are in for hell, bro.

I am.

So I better learn to fail.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
So this is what you

mean when you say that
whatever anyone says,

it's insignificant?

DAVID GOGGINS:
Insignificant as fuck.

ANDREW HUBERMAN:
It's the cap gun fire

because it's just like
it-- because the voice

in your own head is far worse.

And I should say, sorry, one
of the voices in your head.

I'm being very detailed,
almost surgical

about that because I think
this thing about inner dialogue

we think is one voice.

But you're making it
clear it's many voices.

DAVID GOGGINS: It is.

And the thing about it is,
you have to be really--

and sometimes all the
voices are telling you

the wrong shit, man.

But through years, years, not a
podcast or listening to a book

or reading a book,
years of sacrifice,

of suffering, of diligent
pinpoint fucking work

on what you want
to do for yourself,

not like, oh, let me
just do a bunch of shit.

Let me-- I want to be
in every task possible.

No.

Pinpoint what I want
to do with my life.

What happens is you have
all these voices that

are telling you
you're fucked up,

and this is going to be hard.

But for some reason, you put
so much practice into you

that you can ignore
every one of them that

are telling you you're not
going to fucking make it.

And still be able
to fucking make it

because you have put
the practice in that you

know this is the process.

It's such a daunting task that
all the voices are saying no.

But you still have
the conviction

that I know I can do this.

And that's what it took
for me to get here.

20, 30 years ago, I had this--

35 or whatever it was,
25 years ago, pipe dream.

And ever since then, every voice
was like, you're a fucking nut.

But when you put that practice
in every day, you lace them up.

And I mean, run.

It's just a metaphor for life.

When you lace them
motherfuckers up every day,

pretty soon, you win.

Pretty soon, you'll fucking win.

If you have the courage and
the heart and the dedication

and the mindset of everybody
can go fuck themselves,

I know what I know.

I've listened to
myself enough to know.

I know what I know.

None of you can hear
what I'm hearing.

And that's what people
don't do enough of.

They don't listen
to their journey.

They listen to
everybody else's shit.

Before you know it, I'm crazy.

But if I'm so fucking crazy,
why am I so successful?

How that happen?

But I'm so misguided
and fucked up.

And don't listen to him.

Why am I the only one to
do a whole bunch of shit?

Why am I a trailblazer?

Why?

How is that possible?

How can you be fucked up and
also self-made at the same

fucking--

no.

No.

Obviously, you're not looking
at the truth in front of you.

The truth in front
of you is it sucks.

It's painful.

It's fucking mind-numbing.

And that is the truth.

And that's why a
lot of people don't

like listening to me because
this is what it takes,

creating another voice and
sometimes going at it alone.

All the time going at it
alone because no one's

going to believe in you.

And that's that.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: What I'm
about to say is not conjecture.

And I can say that
with confidence

because I did a
four-episode guest

series with a brilliant
psychiatrist, a guy named

Paul Conti.

He's from Trenton.

He's a Stanford,
Harvard-trained guy.

He's also got a lot
of street in him.

He's had his own
hardship, real hardship.

He's brilliant.

And he said something
that I'll never forget,

which is, we think that
the forebrain, the part

of our brain that creates
strategy, et cetera,

is the supercomputer.

He said, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no.

No, no, no.

He's like, the
supercomputer of the brain

is the unconscious mind.

It's the part of our mind that's
controlling most everything.

And most people,
unfortunately, don't

do the work to understand
how their unconscious is

controlling them.

And that's a scary
thing, this idea,

like your mind is
controlling you.

And I'm not going to get
into the free will debate.

I believe in at least some will.

I believe what you're describing
and this internal dialogue,

I think you have access
to your unconscious mind

by listening to the
dialogue, going inward.

We know this is true in sleep,
in dreams, in meditation,

and just by shutting out
everything else, shutting out

all the external
noise, which is filled

with things that pull us to it.

Noise makes it sound bad, but
it's the gravitational pull

of all the things that allow
us to distract ourselves

without knowing.

The ice cream.

The have a cookie.

The Merry Christmas.

The unconscious
mind, this huge piece

of the iceberg underneath that
Paul calls the supercomputer,

he's saying that with
knowledge as a neurobiologist,

psychiatrist, psychologist,
so he really knows,

that's the piece that if
one does real introspection,

he calls it the cupboards.

You got to look
in the cupboards.

And it's often really scary
what you find in there.

And most people are
just like, I don't even

want to know the
cupboards are there.

But you're pulling all
the cupboard doors open.

And then you're-- and you're
extremely deliberate with what

gets put into action.

You're not just going,
oh, like, I'm pissed,

so I'm going to act pissed.

Or I'm tired, so I'm
going to act tired.

It's you're picking very
carefully what to do.

And that's a process that
I'm guessing came to you.

Does it come to you
as a, OK, it makes

sense why running makes sense.

It makes sense why
smokejumping makes sense.

So it seems like a huge
portion of your time

is spent understanding yourself
and making sense to you.

And so when people
don't understand you,

it's got to be extra frustrating
because most people don't

understand themselves.

So then we're all running
around going, you're this,

and you're that because
most people are just

unwilling to look inward.

And I'm including
myself, by the way.

I mean, I've done a fair
amount of introspection.

But I'm inspired today, that
word, inspired, but it's true,

motivated to start going inward
further because it is scary.

It's like, we don't know
what's in those cupboards,

and it's terrifying, especially
because we don't know.

DAVID GOGGINS: And those are
the first ones to open up.

And like you talked
about, you got

to go through those cupboards.

I do spring cleaning
every fucking

day in those dark cupboards.

Those dark cabinets are the
ones I start with first.

That's the real me, man.

That's the real me.

That's why I'm not ashamed.

I don't hide.

I used to hide.

I don't hide anymore.

He's exactly right.

I don't know all the
fucking science behind shit.

I know what I know.

That's why I don't listen
to anybody anymore.

I don't listen to shit.

I think most people are
full of shit because I know.

I know the deep, dark secrets
of those fucking cupboards.

It's ugly, man.

And every day, I'm
talking to them.

Every day, I'm cleaning them.

I'm cleaning them,
and I'm talking

to the same demons that came
out of those fucking cupboards

as I'm cleaning them.

Sometimes they go right
back in them again.

It's not easy.

And this is why
most of us just--

why I am misunderstood
because what comes out

of those cabinets
that I'm cleaning,

sometimes they see on Instagram.

Sometimes they'll
see it in a podcast.

Sometimes they see
it in this one.

I turn people off.

Open up your own cabinets.

And then go talk about it.

Let me see how pretty it looks.

Let me see how pretty you sound.

Let me see how put
together your words are.

I bet you a fuck or a
motherfucker comes out

because for you to go
back in there again

to clean the same fucking
cabinet that the demon came out

of takes some big balls, bro.

To do it every day of your life.

To go back in there and spring
clean every day, not once

a fucking year,
once every decade.

Every day you know
it gets dusty.

And every day, you don't
start with the victories.

You don't go, oh, this is nice.

Look at my-- look at
my I love me wall.

Let me clean up.

This is a little dusty.

No.

I go right for the things that
are going to keep me buried.

And I go right there first
because if I don't clean those

out first, the
day doesn't start.

So what are you
saying to me is truth.

And like I told you
many times today, I

can never figure out how to
explain this shit to people

because I'm not neuro nothing.

I'm just a guy that said, OK,
we got to start in the dungeon.

And we got to stay here
for the rest of our lives.

For you to become
successful, the dungeon

is a place that has to be clean.

And it's the
scariest place to be.

That's why I'm
misunderstood because I'm

speaking from the dungeon.

That's why I am
successful because I

go there every damn day.

And that is the
truth, what he says.

It's the exact truth.

Those cabinets are
fucking dusty, dirty,

and scary as shit.

Broken glass, fucking
dark, spiders, cobwebs.

But most of all,
your biggest fears,

the biggest things that put
you in a fucked up place you

are today are in there.

That's why we all like
to keep them shut.

You like to lock them up.

Act like they never happened.

That's why you never grow.

You never improve.

You never have
real conversations

like we're having right now.

Never.

Never.

Oh no.

No, no, no, no, no.

Let's not-- no, no, no.

Let's not go there.

I talked to so many
people who tell me that.

Let's talk about this.

Because they'll tell me, but
they can only say it once.

And they'll say it in passing.

They won't get deep
in the weeds with it.

Like, you can't just clean it.

Motherfucker, you got to
spit shine that motherfucker.

You got to relive it,
every fucking detail of it.

You can't just be like, oh
yeah, yeah, my dad beat me.

And it is what it is.

It ain't is what it
is, motherfucker.

It's killing you.

It's taken over your
whole fucking life.

But that's the conversation.

Yeah, my dad beat-- but
I'm fine now, though.

I'm good.

OK.

All right.

No, you ain't.

You ain't fine.

You ain't fine.

This is real talk.

People don't have that.

So your boy's right.

100% right.

Scary as shit.

It's scary as shit.

But it makes you who
you're supposed to be.

And that's the test.

We forget.

We think we're supposed to
breathe air and have kids

and pay the bills and shit.

But what's this life about?

That makes no sense.

We're being tested, my friend.

Tests come when you
have not studied.

Tests come when you think
that you're in a great place.

That's the test.

The test is every
day of your life.

And most of us fail
because we don't

know why we're here because
we don't go inward to say, oh.

You gave me a lot
of shit to fix, man.

And this test sucks.

But then you start.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: David Goggins.

I don't think I
could add to that.

I know I can't.

Thank you for sharing
what you shared today.

I mean, as much as your
process or anyone's process

can't be completely
understood from the outside,

you gave us a real
window into this thing,

this process that you--

as you said, God put it on you.

I believe in God too.

People can believe
what they want.

But somehow, your life, God gave
you these challenges early on.

And then there was a point
where you went internal.

And like you said,
you developed a skill.

But it's a perishable skill.

And you clearly
live in the process

of opening those cupboards,
reopening those cupboards,

trying to spit shine
those cupboards,

understanding that they're
never, ever really done,

but that you can gain ground
on them, that you can win day

after day after day.

And you really shared a
lot of concrete things

that I know people
are going to be

able to apply if they choose.

And I agree with you.

I think most people
will be like, whoa.

That was a lot.

It's heavy.

I think I want to just kind of
bake myself in Netflix and Chex

Mix instead.

But there's also the
reality that there

are men and women, boys and
girls who hear that and go, OK,

and start cracking
the cupboards open.

And I just know
that for myself, I'm

extremely grateful that
you're willing to put it

all out there.

You're so brutally honest,
so brutally authentic.

That word authenticity
gets thrown around so much.

And I can tell you that for me
and for everybody else, that's

really what resonates.

So whether or not you want
to, whether or not it's

the purpose behind it or not,
you're lighting the path.

So thank you.

DAVID GOGGINS:
Respect Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Thank
you for joining me

for today's discussion
with David Goggins.

To learn more about
David and to find links

to his two fantastic
books, "Can't Hurt Me,"

and "Never Finished," please
see the show note captions.

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